Tamyrlin: 2004-10-06

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
1) There is a difference between owning a damane and training a damane. If you watch a dog show, you'll see that there are breeders, owners and handlers. Handlers do the training, but they aren't necessarily the owner.
2) Wouldn't a sul'dam use the a'dam for discipline? Of course, if she were linked to the damane. Nothing indicates Tuon was linked to Lydia when she ordered the foretelling.
3) Yes, the der'sul'dam despaired, but we've seen with Renna that not all sul'dam are the same in their philosophies. Besides, as we've seen multiple times in WoT: an 'outsider' who doesn't know the rules is often more competant than the lifelong expert.
4) Tuon doesn't need sul'dam to train damane not because she doesn't need an a'dam, but because she can use the a'dam herself.
5) Why would Selucia react to kill Domon(and let's be honest, that's exactly what she was about to do) if the revelation that sul'dam were marath'damane didn't directly and personally impinge on Tuon?

DCIMorse: 2004-10-06

Your argument basically boils down to the following statement: "Because Jordan never outright says that Tuon can handle an a'dam, she obviously can't." Right. So even if we know that a woman loves horses, likes to hang out with jockeys, and knows how to handle a riding crop, we can still positively conclude that she can't ride if we never actually see her on top of a horse.

Callandor: 2004-10-06

Great Lord, you are really reaching in your late years; Moridin killing Asmodean was at least somewhat possible ;)

**Tuon believes that all damane owners should do what she is doing with damane.**

Sure, why not have all damane owners also train their own damane?

**Since Tuon knows this cannot be true, it stands to reason that she is not sul'dam either.**

Bull, simple wishful thinking; heck even Cadsuane and Rand al'Thor endulge in that.

**No mention of a'dam. Wouldn't a sul'dam use the a'dam for discipline?**

Why do you think it was so shaming to Tuon??

**Every der'sul'dam gave up on Mylen. Do you believe Tuon is somehow better than lifelong sul'dam at using an a'dam?**

No, but to imply that Semirhage is Anath, she is more stubborn ;)

**In short, we have an unreliable point of view (Mat), and two authoritative points of view (Tuon, the general)that leave certain details ambiguous enough that one could make a strong case that Tuon's ability lies not with the Power, but in sheer force of will, and ability to befriend and command her property.**

Oh, oh, no. You forgot one important quote, oh Great Lord.

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 28 - A Cluster of Rosebuds

"I train horses and damane," she said, peering into a cage that held a sleeping lion. The animal was only a large shadow lying on the straw behind the thick bars. "Does he really have a black mane? There are no lions with black manes in all of Seanchan."**

Tuon herself saying ~SHE~ trains them; not owns them or takes care of them, trains them.

Punishing a damane can be a veriety of ways by looking at the offense and the honor of the owner (Tuon was shamed for caning Lydia).

Training a damane is ONLY done, with an a'dam. A'dams only work for women who can channel or learn to channel.

ilgross: 2004-10-07

"Many had thought it odd when Tuon tested for sul'dam on reaching adulthood, though none could gainsay her, then. Except her mother, who had allowed it by remaining silent. Actually becoming a sul'dam was unthinkable, of course, but she found as much enjoyment in training damane as in training horses, and she was as good at one as the other. Mylen was the proof of that. The pale little damane had been half-dead with shock and fear, refusing to eat or drink, when Tuon bought her on the docks at Shon Kifar. The der'sul'dam all had despaired, saying she would not live long, but now Mylen smiled up at Tuon and leaned forward to kiss her hand before she even reached to stroke the damane's dark hair. Once skin and bones, she was becoming a trifle plump. Instead of rebuking her, Catrona, who held her leash, let a smile crease her usually stern black face and murmured that Mylen was a perfect damane. It was true, no one would believe now that once she had called herself Aes Sedai."

The fact that she was tested, and then the paragraph goes on to talk about here training them, would certainly indicate that she could channel.

Satin alEllien Moonsong: 2004-10-07

I gotta gree with callandor on this one. the old 'lack of proof = proof' creed is wearing my nerves mighty thin. shape up or ship out GLOTD, you seem to be losing your touch. that 'Moridin killed asmodean' thing still doesn't seem right to me, I think Moiraine killed him, myself.

Jay al Ender: 2004-10-07

Tuon can channel.

What's your next theory, Mat is unlucky?

I mean you might be able to argue in the same sort of way since bad things seem to happen to him. So the more he uses his luck to more bad things will happen to him. So.... Mat is really unlucky.

Sheeze.........

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-10-07

So Tuon is stubborn, eh? Stubborn enough to try train damane even if she can't use an a'dam? Or is she not that stubborn?

I agree that she trains the damane herself, I never said different. I said she uses traditional training methods, no a'dam.

The mark of a stubborn woman. ;)

WinespringBrother: 2004-10-07

Don't forget the danger that Anath mentioned to Rand that Tuon represents, which is likely the e've (male a'dam) that the Seanchan recovered from Bayle Domon. She couldn't use it if she weren't a channeler.

Dorindha: 2004-10-07

In addition to what had been written, I think it is implied in the quote about testing and "actually becoming a sul'dam was unthinkable" that she could become a sul'dam, but her position prevents her from it - she didn't have to test, but she did, and it provided her with a nice little hobby...

damane: 2004-10-07

I hope she can't channel. I'm getting sick and tired of every woman being able to channel.

fistandantilus: 2004-10-07

Admittedly, some of the reasons that people give for believing that are rediculous. Like the event in the hall at Tylin's palace(if you don't know which, find another Tuon theory and you'll find it REAL quick). However, without the benefit of solid proof, we must rely on the circumstantial. In this case, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. We all know RJ penchant for red herrings, but what purpose would this one serve? I don't see Tuon's ability or lack thereof as crucial to the story's development. I like to think that she can channel because of the irony. Mat has been trying to stay away from the Power as much as possible, and now his future wife is a channeler! Funny stuff right there.

Callandor: 2004-10-08

**So Tuon is stubborn, eh? Stubborn enough to try train damane even if she can't use an a'dam? Or is she not that stubborn?**

Once again, you haven't proved she can't use an a'dam.

**I agree that she trains the damane herself, I never said different. I said she uses traditional training methods, no a'dam.**

How? The traditional training method IS using the a'dam. How do you train a damane to destroy a tree, with a stick?

clarkkd: 2004-10-08

Tuon in the same chapter also complains that she still looks 16, yet is just younger than Mat, could this not refer to the slowing effect?

Daekyras: 2004-10-08

Pfah, she can channel. Thats the end of it!

Cor Shan: 2004-10-08

If she was slowing, she would be a Damane.

enigma: 2004-10-11

I don't think you have sold this one. When Tuon said no one should be allowed to own damane unless they took an active interest I think she was suggesting it was wrong for anyone to own damane and not pop in every once in a while to see who their training was comming along or if there were any problems. Some people seem to completly deligate all responsibility to the Sul'dam and only think of the damane when they are needed for a task. Tuon believes that the owner should moniter the situation and be as involved in the day to day training as is practicable in the circumstances.

As for Tuon ordering the damane beaten rather that punishing her that could go either way. She was one of the Blood and angry. Her first reaction was probably to issue an order to the sul'dam that the damane should be punished. Where she activly linked at the time she could have done it herself but if there was a sul'dam there she probably had the woman do it. Not to mention if she was really angry and wanted the effect to last the physical beating would leave the woman sour a lot longer that the short discomfort an adam punishment would inflict.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-10-12

What of the fact that sul'dam always want to be linked, and desire to be made whole with a damane. Shouldn't we have seen at leats one quote from Tuon showing this? Just one line saying 'ah, it's so nice to wear that bracelet and feel the damane.' But there isn't one. Best you'll find is that she knows all their quirks, just as she knows those of her other pets: horses.

Callandor: 2004-10-12

**Shouldn't we have seen at leats one quote from Tuon showing this? Just one line saying 'ah, it's so nice to wear that bracelet and feel the damane.'**

Uhh, how about when Mat asks her what she ~likes~ to do, and she replies training damane?? Maybe? Could be? Possibly???

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-10-13

Therein lies the heart of our argument Callandor. Because Tuon is so successful at horse training, I believe she has applied her skills to damane. You could claim training people is different than training horses, but Tuon wouldn't note that difference. They are both animals. I don't think the a'dam is necessary to train damane if you have the right skills and are stubborn enough to keep trying at it until it works.

You believe that Tuon would not be stubborn enough to try train damane without an a'dam if she could not channel. But still stubborn enough to make Semirhage frustrated, when Semirhage has made an art of breaking people's wills.

Interesting.

Sampson: 2004-10-13

I would have to say that Tuon can channel. I cannot “quote” all the evidence. But it is more of an instinctual feeling. There are only (2) major female characters that cannot channel, Faile & Min.

Faile is connected to Perrin and is royalty. I think her main purpose was making Perrin accept being a wolf bother (the dream hedgehog and freeing her).

Min can see the pattern (main reason for having her in the story) and she is the only female close to Rand that cannot channel which is important.

Tuon, you can make the argument that because she is heir to the crystal throne and the DOTNM (to marry Mat) that she has fulfilled her main part of the story. But you cannot look past the obvious that since she will be connected to Mat and Mat does not like anything to do with the OP that she most likely will end up being able to channel.

I can see the story line already, inescapable proof that Sul'dam can channel just like daman. The power structure for the Seachan is shaken. TDOTNM steps up and shows she can channel and shouldn't be collared. She stabilizes the Seachan in time to fight TG.

I just do not see that many main characters not being able to channel. I mean that is basically what the series is about anyways. I mean does anybody believe that by the end of the series that there will be any daman left collared? So that is something that has to be cleared up, what better way than the Empress, may she live forever, be a Marth'daman(sp)? Just makes sense.

Callandor: 2004-10-13

**Because Tuon is so successful at horse training, I believe she has applied her skills to damane. You could claim training people is different than training horses, but Tuon wouldn't note that difference.**

Excuse me, what? Training damane would not be a notable difference to Tuon?

Tell me, O GLotD, what other book evidence is there for training damane, other then the a'dam? I suppose the fact that until the discovery of the a'dam, Luthair's army had Aes Sedai allies, not captives they could ~control~, makes no difference?

**They are both animals. I don't think the a'dam is necessary to train damane if you have the right skills and are stubborn enough to keep trying at it until it works.**

1. Not training people here; training channelers. A'dam disables that advantage from the channeler, and gives it to the controller.

2. You're going back on your Semirhage arguement; now you're saying Tuon is worthy of recognition, because she is so stubborn.

**You believe that Tuon would not be stubborn enough to try train damane without an a'dam if she could not channel.**

No, I believe she would not even try, since she can use the a'dam ;)

timetorollthedice: 2004-10-14

Maybe I've forgotten, but I thought damane couldn't channel without a sul'dam wearing the bracelet. So, if Tuon was training the damane, was she telling the sul'dam who was wearing the bracelet what to tell the damane? I could see Tuon breaking the damane alone, but to 'train' her she would need to be able to control her through the bracelet. OPINON: I don't think there is much question that she can channel...based on Mat's own luck!

clarkkd: 2004-10-21

IF she can channel (I'm fairly sure she can) and is found out she would be removed from the blood line. The memory of her erased as if she had never been born.

As the next heir to the throne, this might be the start of releasing the damane.

***************

Slowing does not equal damane!

Having the spark equals damane

Their is no(?) evidence that this almost channeling that the sul'dam do does not cause some of the slowing effects.

damane: 2005-02-21

I agree with you, Great Lord! Don't give up hope yet! STAY STRONG!!! YOU'RE NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!!! And someday, we two will be the only ones who can say "I TOLD YOU SO!" when Knife of Dreams comes out. You wait. We will be victorious!

No, seriously, though, I've made this huge theory about how she can't channel, either.

Tuon CANNOT train a damane with the a'dam. Why? Because A SUL'DAM IS ANYBODY WHO HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CONTROL A DAMANE. Read the definition in the Great Hunt, if you don't believe me. Sul'dam are NOT people who walk around in lightning pleated skirts and devote all time to training damane. That's only because a sul'dam is such a respected profession that NOBODY would refuse it. They are ANYBODY who has the potential to control a damane. If Tuon does still link to damane than she would have needed further training to actually be able to USE it. That she WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN. So it stands to reason that she did not pass the test.

So if Tuon is not allowed to become a sul'dam, then she is not allowed to link to an a'dam. And Tuon, being a Seanchan, WILL NOT GO BEHIND HER MOTHER'S BACK AND TRAIN DAMANE. If she uses an a'dam, that makes her a sul'dam, and SHE IS PROHIBITED FROM THAT.

So it stands to reason that SHE CANNOT CHANNEL.

terez: 2005-02-22

I think that being a sul'dam is an honor that no one would pass up - unless they had a higher calling. Such as Tuon's responsibility to the throne. She's a member of the Imperial Family, for crying out loud. How in the world would being a sul'dam be a step up from that? The only step up for Tuon is the Crystal Throne.

And, in response to the slowing comments, is there any information that would suggest for certain that Tuon is not a wilder? Surely she was never tested for damane. Nynaeve was much older than Tuon when she was told she could channel, and could have lived her life without ever knowing. Training damane is probably a great way to gain that rare control needed to survive the spark without training. The best way I could think of, in fact. The members of the Imperial Family or the Blood that have been previously discovered of being able to channel probably didn't train damane, and therefore probably were detected in the struggle. I think Tuon could have easily escaped being detected by gaining that control on her own. Possibly the damane do not detect it because she only uses the Power when she holds the leash, and all sul'dam use the Power at those times - the damane are used to that, and think it comes from them through the leash. Maybe the a'dam would be her block. Wouldn't it be cool if she was just as strong as the other girls?

Callandor: 2005-02-22

**Tuon CANNOT train a damane with the a'dam. Why? Because A SUL'DAM IS ANYBODY WHO HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CONTROL A DAMANE. Read the definition in the Great Hunt, if you don't believe me. Sul'dam are NOT people who walk around in lightning pleated skirts and devote all time to training damane. That's only because a sul'dam is such a respected profession that NOBODY would refuse it. They are ANYBODY who has the potential to control a damane. If Tuon does still link to damane than she would have needed further training to actually be able to USE it. That she WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN. So it stands to reason that she did not pass the test.**

Yes, and now complete the circle here, and tell me what is the "potential" for training damane? It's having the "potential" to channel. All sul'dam are learners; the damane they catch are sparkers (although in Randland, it's more mixed due to the Aes Sedai factor).

Furthermore, who are you to say that Tuon would not have gotten the training? She says flat out, she trains damane -- show me a lie that Tuon has made (her being honor bound, and worried enough about a caning that she views it as a loss of honor; can't wait to see what a lie would do). Who trains damane? Sul'dam. Who are sul'dam? Potential channelers -- the learners.

Tuon cannot channel ~now~, she needs to learn first. She has the potential to channel, if she is trained; as do ALL sul'dam.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-22

If Tuon was a wilder, some other woman who could channel (presumably, in this case, a damane) would feel her ability to channel and she would be rumbled (it seems too far fetched to say that she could teach herself the weave that masks the ability).

Sampson, you forgot Birgitte, but that isn't really important.

Clarkkd, if suldam also experienced slowing, wouldn't there have been a comment along the lines of "hey, she looks like an Aes Sedai, maybe she can channel" somewhere in TGH when Sul'dam are first encountered?

I agree with the post damane made, that Tuon would not go and be a sul'dam (in the literal sense here["leash holder], not as in the profession) because it is "unthinkable".

Tamyrlin: 2005-02-22

Didn't I write this up somewhere...must have been on the message board. This may be considered self serving, but I recommend reading this post concerning channeling, link. Sul'dam are BTC's are not detected by placing a collar around their neck, because they haven't developed, by the time the test is taken, a link to the OP (be it an internal bridge...whatever), they cannot tough the OP without being taught. However, they can feel the OP through the bracelet, which over time, unconsciously helps them develop a path to the OP, which we see has occurred with the Sul'dam who are able to be held with a collar. Tuon could be a BTC, and actually, if she has actually "trained" damane, IS a BTC.

Anubis: 2005-02-22

there is a HUGE difference between being a wilder and a sul'dan. Wilders are women who have taught themselves how to channel . In other words, they havee, themselves, channeled. Sul'dan on the other hand are completely incapable of channeling on their own. However, they can control another persons channeling.

About being sensed... You can only be sensed, as a channeler, if you yourself have channeled, and you are not hiding it using the forsaken weave that nynaeve knows. Therefore Tuon OR ANY OTHER SUL DAN for that matter, could walk by a Dammae guard, completely undetected.

Now, Tuon could POTENTIALLY learn to channel incredibly quickly. The reason being that she already knows the weaves, she just needs to learn to embrace the source, and a typical novice learns this in a matter of weeks. (then she needs to learn how to get around matts medallion)

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-22

In response to Tamyrlins posting that if Tuon has trained damane she must be a BTC, that only works if she did it via an a'dam, and not if she used more manual methods.

Tamyrlin: 2005-02-22

As Yaga says, Tuon could have used some "manual" form of training Damane that doesn't utilize the a'dam...but, we should all admit that training Damane without an a'dam, is like a female channeler attempting to train a male channeler, like teaching a fish to fly.

Ozymandias: 2005-02-22

"As Yaga says, Tuon could have used some "manual" form of training Damane that doesn't utilize the a'dam...but, we should all admit that training Damane without an a'dam, is like a female channeler attempting to train a male channeler, like teaching a fish to fly."

Except we know that Verin has seen fish in the Sea of Storms which can, actually, fly...

(sorry about that... but I couldn't resist. In my monthly rereading of the series I just passed that part, lol)

Callandor: 2005-02-22

**Clarkkd, if suldam also experienced slowing, wouldn't there have been a comment along the lines of "hey, she looks like an Aes Sedai, maybe she can channel" somewhere in TGH when Sul'dam are first encountered?**

Because you are really mixing things up here.

Slowing is the longevity of aging for all channelers. They live longer lives then anyone.

Aes Sedai look the way they do, because of the Oath Rod and the Three Oaths.

Windfinders and Wise Ones do slow, as well as the Kin and damane, and they are not remarked as "ageless" as the Aes Sedai are, but similar.

Sul'dam slowing is debatable as far as I know, since there is no quote on their life-span being longer then other people (if anyone finds one, I'll gladly retract my statement). Presumably, they have to first touch the Source, and then (depending on the age) they would begin to slow.

Vaetrus: 2005-02-23

I cannot believe that you came to that conclusion. That is so farfetching. I don't even need to prove my point, I think anything I say now will have already been repeated many times. Just that making Tuon not being able to channel is like trying to deny the flood when you're knee deep in water.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-23

I've an idea on how Tuon can get past Mat's medallion, she just needs to /distract/ him and then remove it. Seeing as she is his wife I don't think that that would be too hard especially after whay the lovely queen of Ebu Dar did to him. But the quietion is, why would she need to channel at him?

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-23

Point taken, Callandor, thank you for once again corrrecting me. *sulking*

Maybe manual training wouldn't work for the channeling part of being a damane (OK, there isn't much maybe about it) but the Seanchan hold contests for the prettiest damane, so maybe Tuon ttrains them for that sort of thing (posture, facial expression etc.) or something similar.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-24

Callandor:"Tell me, O GLotD, what other book evidence is there for training damane, other then the a'dam?"

Well, I may not be the Great Lord of the Dark, but I will tell you where methods other than the a'dam are used.

The Great Hunt, chapter40:Damane ""And if I spare her, if I allow her to visit you occasionally, will you work hard and learn as you are taught?"

"I will, High Lady"...

"If this damane proves a disappointment, perhaps then I will let you have the head of the girl.""

Egwene is being trained in obedience but no a'dam is in use. This happens again later in TGH, chapter42: Falme "Renna had made her do that once, too- made her carry her own bracelet across the room. Or try to. She was sure it had only been minutes before the sul'dam snapped the bracelet firmly on her own wrist, but to Egwene the screaming and the cramps that had her writhing on the floor had seemed to go on for hours."

Although this does involve an a'dam, there is nothing to stop Tuon having done it. Indeed any non-channeler could do this. The same chapter also contains references to damane being lectured, another thing that could be done by anyone, including Tuon.

So there you have it. Book evidence of methods other than the a'dam being used to train damane.

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-24

That may be, but without a Sul'dam or someone to take the bracelt there, I could see a reluctant damane moving her braclet unitl it kills her. An awful death is better than a lifetime of slavery.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-24

To an Aes Sedai or someone else from the main continent, yes a horrific and painful death is proably preferable, but the Seanchan-born damane are probably far more amenable to the slavery due to a millennium of mass brainwashing. And this assumes that you could die from trying to walk too far. Personally, I think you would just be in pain for ever as it is only a mental response, not a physical one. Sooner or later, the damane would either give up or go insane. And a real sul'dam is going to show up and snap the bracelet back on before letting a damane do either of those.

Callandor: 2005-02-25

**Although this does involve an a'dam, there is nothing to stop Tuon having done it. Indeed any non-channeler could do this. The same chapter also contains references to damane being lectured, another thing that could be done by anyone, including Tuon.**

Ah, so Tuon putting an a'dam on a peg, constitutes training? How in the world is this possible?

A damane who recieves a "lecture" is hardly trained. How is Egwene trained? Destruction. The thing about Egwene is that she had enough talent in Earth to garner other training. But ALL of it involved the One Power.

**Egwene is being trained in obedience but no a'dam is in use.**

Wow... Egwene being thankful and saying she will be good to save a friends life, constitutes training....

**And a real sul'dam is going to show up and snap the bracelet back on before letting a damane do either of those.**

Ah, so Tuon is nothing more then a lied-to noble in this case then? A pathetic minor detail damane guard. The real sul'dam clean up all her messes...

Right.

Khaos: 2005-02-25

Perhaps a more intersting question than whether or not Tuon can channel is why would Robert Jordan leave it so ambiguous. he hints and implies but never actually outright gives proof that Tuon has the potential to channel.

It could just be a red herring but the only reason I give this theory any credence is not because for any arguments about training and this that and the other but simply RJ likes to have his characters make completely and utterly wrong assumptions. Mat has made the assumption that Tuon is a channeller that says to me that it will turn out she is not.

: 2005-02-25

I made a mistake on my last posting: when I said " Personally, I think you would just be in pain for ever as it is only a mental response, not a physical one. Sooner or later, the damane would either give up or go insane. And a real sul'dam is going to show up and snap the bracelet back on before letting a damane do either of those. " what I meant was that damane are too valuable to the Seanchan to allow one to go insane. If the damane gives up and decides to do as she is told then that part of the training is complete.

Callandor said "Ah, so Tuon putting an a'dam on a peg, constitutes training? How in the world is this possible?" And I will just assume that you did not mean that you believe Tuon is incapable of putting a bracelet on a peg. In this case, the training is in the nature of the a'dam: that it will not allow the damane wearing the necklace to walk very far unless a sul'dam is wearing the bracelet. Of course this is training. If you still refuse to accept the fact that this constitutes training, I think that shows the fact that your argument is pretty weak.

Callandor then goes on to say: "Wow... Egwene being thankful and saying she will be good to save a friends life, constitutes training.... " Uhhh...duh. Of course it does, if she means it. At this point in the text, Min is about 5 seconds away from becoming a corpse. Then, Suroth promises to keep her alive if Egwene works hard.

It's just like training a dog, in that it comes in two parts. Lets take the example of teaching a dog to walk to heel. Firstly, you teach it what to do, for example by keeping it on a short leash so that it has no choice but to walk to heel. Secondly, you reward it for doing well with praise, treats etc.

For a damane, the sul'dam must teach them what to do, but the issuing of rewards for good behaviour, like extending someones life, can be handled by anyone. In Egwene's case, she must work hard at what the damane sets her to do, but Suroth is issuing the reward. Substitute Egwene for Joanne Randlander and Tuon for Suroth, and voila, Tuon is partially training damane without using an a'dam.

I think that you have missed an enormous point here, Callandor. You are only considering the damane as weapons, and forgetting that, although blowing things up is their main function, they are not off causing destruction 24 hours a day. They live, they eat, they do other stuff. "Damane are not allowed to touch a weapon of any kind...Even our meat is cut for us"(Egwene to Min, TGH ch.42Falme) Who told her this? A sul'dam, possibly, but it sounds like the kind of thing that anyone could tell her. Maybe in a lecture.

"A damane who recieves a "lecture" is hardly trained" Uhhh...say what now? Being a damane is a way of life, and not one that most women are accustomed to. To make that transition requires training, delivered in lecture form. Observe: "'Damane have no possessions' it had been explained to her. 'The dress a damane wears, the food she eats, the bed she sleeps in, are all gifts from her sul'dam. If a sul'dam chooses that a damane sleep on the floor instead of in a bed, or in a stall in a stable, it is purely the choice of the sul'dam.' Mulaen, whohad charge of the damane quarters, had a droning nasal, but she was sharp with any damane who did not remember every word of her boring lectures."(TGH, ch.42Falme) Would this by any chance be an example of a new damane being trained for her new lifestyle by a lecture? Maybe? Could be? Possibly??

Then Callandor said:"Ah, so Tuon is nothing more then a lied-to noble in this case then? A pathetic minor detail damane guard. The real sul'dam clean up all her messes...

Right. "

1) Who's lying? Seriously, where did that come from? She knows that she can't wear the bracelet(as will you, one day), yet she still chooses to get involved.

2)Not really pathetic. That the damane have no choice but to obey is an important lesson. Whoever teaches that to the damane is far from minor-detail. As for guard, who needs to guard someone who can't touch anything she even thinks of as a weapon.

3)I don't think anyone actually cleans up the messes, because there are no messes. Just lessons being taught.

I also would ask you to perhaps explain how the training in Power based destruction recieved from a sul'dam is going to be any different to the training in power based destruction that would be provided from a non-chaneller. Since sul'dam do not believe they can channel, they are hardly going to start demonstrating weaves. Provided a compliant sul'dam was wearing the bracelet,what stops Tuon from being the one to say "Feel the tree. Feel the sap in the tree. I want you tto make it all not only hot, but so hot that every drop of sap in every branch flashes to steam in an instant. Do it."(TGH, ch40Damane)

Callandor, you really are not doing so well at proving your point any more. I know there are a number of places on this site where you get to look down your nose at the rest of us, but not this time. Resorting to sarcasm? What's next, going to tug your braid at us?

Callandor: 2005-02-25

**Callandor then goes on to say: "Wow... Egwene being thankful and saying she will be good to save a friends life, constitutes training.... " Uhhh...duh. Of course it does, if she means it. At this point in the text, Min is about 5 seconds away from becoming a corpse. Then, Suroth promises to keep her alive if Egwene works hard.**

Yes, and again, where is the damane training in this?

Are you understanding what damane training even is? It's taking a sparker, and turning her into a productive, trained, ~channeler~.

Egwene isn't being trained; she's being blackmailed.

**For a damane, the sul'dam must teach them what to do, but the issuing of rewards for good behaviour, like extending someones life, can be handled by anyone. In Egwene's case, she must work hard at what the damane sets her to do, but Suroth is issuing the reward. Substitute Egwene for Joanne Randlander and Tuon for Suroth, and voila, Tuon is partially training damane without using an a'dam.**

Funny how Suroth does not state that she trains damane....

**I think that you have missed an enormous point here, Callandor. You are only considering the damane as weapons, and forgetting that, although blowing things up is their main function, they are not off causing destruction 24 hours a day. They live, they eat, they do other stuff. "Damane are not allowed to touch a weapon of any kind...Even our meat is cut for us"(Egwene to Min, TGH ch.42Falme) Who told her this? A sul'dam, possibly, but it sounds like the kind of thing that anyone could tell her. Maybe in a lecture.**

Of course there is etiquette involved, and that is done by a sul'dam, but that is not the training of damane. What do sul'dam do? They take the untrained wild sparkers they capture, and make them into properly productive channelers. ~Channelers.~ I cannot stress this part enough. There isn't a sul'dam for the etiquette part, and a sul'dam for the channeling weaves; it's one and the same for a sul'dam. Tuon cannot say she has trained damane, without doing the training via an a'dam, and making the damane into a proper productive channeler.

**1) Who's lying? Seriously, where did that come from? She knows that she can't wear the bracelet(as will you, one day), yet she still chooses to get involved.**

Whoa! What? Please, since it seems you have the mental capacity to use quotes, quote that big piece of important information.

**2)Not really pathetic. That the damane have no choice but to obey is an important lesson. Whoever teaches that to the damane is far from minor-detail. As for guard, who needs to guard someone who can't touch anything she even thinks of as a weapon.**

Think -- of what -- you are -- suggesting. The Daughter of the Nine Moons, the Heir to the Seanchan throne, sits down with a damane, while they are unleashed, and sits their, doing no training but "lecturing" to them.

How can you even classify this as a sul'dam?

**3)I don't think anyone actually cleans up the messes, because there are no messes. Just lessons being taught.**

Damane tries to escape, Tuon can't do crap (according to you since you believe she cannot learn to channel). A sul'dam has to come in and, clean up her mess.

**I also would ask you to perhaps explain how the training in Power based destruction recieved from a sul'dam is going to be any different to the training in power based destruction that would be provided from a non-chaneller.**

.... Because a non-channeler has no idea how to even begin to train a channeler in how to channel?

**Since sul'dam do not believe they can channel, they are hardly going to start demonstrating weaves. Provided a compliant sul'dam was wearing the bracelet,what stops Tuon from being the one to say**

Because, if Tuon does not use the a'dam, and know how to use it, she can say whatever she wants, but the sul'dam is doing the training, not Tuon.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-26

The post above with no name was me, but I'm guessing you already knew that.

“Are you understanding what damane training even is? It's taking a sparker, and turning her into a productive, trained, ~channeler~.”

No, really? Golly, wow. Please stop treating me like an idiot. It's pretty damn annoying. Fair enough, you've been here a hell of a lot longer than me, but come on. At least take me seriously. I have read the series three times (CoT only once), give me a little credit.

You skirted the issue here. Aes Sedai presumably train their novices and Accepted by demonstrating weaves, then getting the girl to repeat them. The sul'dam can not do that, so whatever they do could be done just as well by someone who can not channel or be taught to channel.

As for productive, well, I for one would like to know how a damane who is constantly being punished for not obeying the rules that govern a damane's life can be considered effective. Rules like not calling the attention of the blood upon oneself, not lying to a sul'dam, that kind of stuff. Also, how do you propose to teach these rules to the damane other than through a series of lectures?

You know something else a productive channeler being used as a weapon? What she is told, when she is told. Going back to Min living on sufferance, Egwene is being trained, to do as she is told, or else Min dies. It may be blackmail, but it is also a form of training. Being trained takes different forms, and the use of pain to correct mistakes is one of them. Egwene screws up, Min dies, Egwene is unhappy(read emotional pain), Egwene does better next time. End result: one trained damane named Egwene.

“**1) Who's lying? Seriously, where did that come from? She knows that she can't wear the bracelet(as will you, one day), yet she still chooses to get involved.**

Whoa! What? Please, since it seems you have the mental capacity to use quotes, quote that big piece of important information.”

I take it that the big piece of information you want is the fact that Tuon can't wear the bracelets? That would be the entire point of this theory. I believe it, but you know that there aren't any quotes to state it otherwise this wouldn't be a controversial theory. If it's something else I said, well “(as will you, one day)” is also based on my belief in this theory. “yet she still chooses to get involved” is another part of the backbone to this theory, and surely even you can't think I'm wrong when I say that Tuon does get involved in the training of damane.

“Damane tries to escape, Tuon can't do crap (according to you since you believe she cannot learn to channel). A sul'dam has to come in and, clean up her mess.”

No. Not even close. The damane can't escape if they are wearing the necklace.

“.... Because a non-channeler has no idea how to even begin to train a channeler in how to channel?”

You tell me. Clearly, someone with no training in channelling can train someone to channel. All the sul'dam do it.

“Think -- of what -- you are -- suggesting. The Daughter of the Nine Moons, the Heir to the Seanchan throne, sits down with a damane, while they are unleashed, and sits their, doing no training but "lecturing" to them.”

I never said unleashed. Frankly, that would be idiocy. And is it being facetious to point out that lecturing is a form of training. Let me give you an example. IRL I work part-time in a supermarket. When I started, they gave me a hygiene lecture as part of my training. Part of my training came in the form of a lecture. The military does the same thing, as I imagine do a lot of other jobs IRL. Extend the principle to Randland, and maybe you will see what I mean.

“Because, if Tuon does not use the a'dam, and know how to use it, she can say whatever she wants, but the sul'dam is doing the training, not Tuon.”

Sorry, I don't agree with you? If Tuon is doing the talking, then the damane does the thing that Tuon told her to do, then Tuon is doing the training. Admittedly, if the damane does not do what Tuon says, then okay, the sul'dam has to step in to administer the punishment. It would seem that Tuon(presumed here to be completely non channelling) doesn't administer punishment even when she could, because she orders the damane who did the Foretelling caned, and she does not order the cane brought to her so she can cane the damane.

“Funny how Suroth does not state that she trains damane....”

I don't believe that there is a Suroth POV at a time when her biggest concern is with the damane, or even when there is a damane nearby. I'm happy to be wrong, however.

gleeman: 2005-02-26

ok, lets look at some points and see if any of them would support tuon not being able to channel.

1. suroth is a known darkfriend.

2. suroth knows that sul'dams can channel (can be held by a'dams)

3. tuon is suroths superior

4. suroth is a power whore.

5. tuon has trained damane.

you know what i see in all this? i see that tuon could have been a sul'dam (but since she was of the blood, she went with the path to higher rank) and suroth knows it. suroth knows a weakness in tuon now, and if she wanted to take tuons rank, all she would have to do is slip an a'dam on tuon. suroth didnt keep the truth about a'dams and sul'dams to herself for the sake of the empire, but for her advantage.

Callandor: 2005-02-27

How -- can a non-channeler -- teach a channeler -- how to channel?

That's like an ant trying to teach you how to drive. Or a female channeler teaching a male channeler.

A non-channeler would have no grasp of the concepts involved in doing the teaching.

** The sul'dam can not do that, so whatever they do could be done just as well by someone who can not channel or be taught to channel.**

No, it can't, for the simple reason that the a'dam is cruical for teaching a damane, and the a'dam does not work on a non-channeler.

**As for productive, well, I for one would like to know how a damane who is constantly being punished for not obeying the rules that govern a damane's life can be considered effective. Rules like not calling the attention of the blood upon oneself, not lying to a sul'dam, that kind of stuff. Also, how do you propose to teach these rules to the damane other than through a series of lectures?**

Of course. But that is not the training that we are talking about here. Doing what you said, anyone can "train" a damane to sit pretty and do what they are told; however they are not trained at all in the only way that sul'dam exist for training: the One Power.

**End result: one trained damane named Egwene.**

One socially conditioned prisoner -- a trained damane is in the One Power. It's a semantics difference, but important.

**No. Not even close. The damane can't escape if they are wearing the necklace.**

If they try to escape (I did not say they would succeed at all), they get the pain. Tuon can't do anything to stop this. It's your belief that the a'dam doesn't kill after a long enough time, but that's a belief not a fact. Even if it doesn't kill, a damane who did enough with the bracelet might harm herself so much to become useless. All because Tuon, in your interpretation, can't do anything to stop them from trying to escape.

**You tell me. Clearly, someone with no training in channelling can train someone to channel. All the sul'dam do it.**

Do you know why they can? Because they are ~potential channelers.~

They are not non-channelers. Mat Cauthon is a non-channeler; Perrin Aybara is a non-channeler; and in your opinion Tuon is a non-channeler. They have no idea where to begin or how to instruct a channeler on what they do not understand.

**I never said unleashed.**

Excuse me for mis-speaking: while they are not braceleted or whatever you want to call it.

**I don't believe that there is a Suroth POV at a time when her biggest concern is with the damane, or even when there is a damane nearby. I'm happy to be wrong, however.**

First chapter of The Shadow Rising while Suroth is on Cantorin.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-27

Just a quick question, Callandor: Do you accept that certain parts of the training a damane recieves can be given while the damane is collared and nobody is wearing the bracelet?

(And not just training in the Power, which obviously needs a sul'dam to be wearing the braclet, but training in the other aspects of a damane's life)

Callandor: 2005-02-27

**Just a quick question, Callandor: Do you accept that certain parts of the training a damane recieves can be given while the damane is collared and nobody is wearing the bracelet?**

The obedience would be the only thing, but in essence, no.

**(And not just training in the Power, which obviously needs a sul'dam to be wearing the braclet, but training in the other aspects of a damane's life)**

Thank you for finally accepting that sul'dam is required for the One Power training.

Bane Darkwulf: 2005-02-28

As Callandor has pointed out, Tuon can channel, just is not a full Sul'Dam because her birth puts her at a higher rank.

I believe Mat is a pretty good judge of which women can channel, seeing as he is allways tryng to stay away from them, and therefore constantly runs into them.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-02-28

Tuon is NOT a potential channeler.

Fact: Seanchan damane are animals.

Fact: Tuon trains animals.

Fact: Tuon is very good at training animals.

Fact: A der'sul'dam is a "Master Handler" of sul'dam and damane.

Fact: Tuon needs no der'sul'dam to train her sul'dam or damane.

Fact: Sul'dam are people, not animals.

Fact: Tuon is very good at training people.

Fact: Mylen did not think she was an animal.

Fact: sul'dam would have attempted to train Mylen under the premise that she is an animal and should be treated as one.

Fact: sul'dam and der'sul'dam gave up on training Mylen.

I say all Tuon did was treat her damane with kindness, take an active interest in their development, and apply traditional methods of training to get results.

To believe otherwise, is to say that Tuon, in her extremely limited experience with the a'dam, can do what a team of experienced professionals said could not be done.

Tuon is like a benevolent CEO of her empire. She personally makes sure every creature under her is working well. No more than that.

Yaga Shura: 2005-02-28

"Thank you for finally accepting that sul'dam is required for the One Power training. "

Maybe I didn't make myself completely clear on this issue.

a sul'dam is only needed to allow a damane to channel. She(the sul'dam) does not have to be the one giving the instructions.

"The obedience would be the only thing, but in essence, no. " Is it just me, or does that sound a lot like "OK that's a good point but I can't admit that" Come on, the obedience thing IS training

Callandor: 2005-03-01

**Come on, the obedience thing IS training**

No, it's not.

**I say all Tuon did was treat her damane with kindness, take an active interest in their development, and apply traditional methods of training to get results.**

Yes, that's what ~you~ say. Where is ~your~ backing for this?

Plus, Tuon's "radical" method of training for an "uncurable" damane, is kindness? Please. A kindness would be any lacking of the rigorous training that the damane are put through. But, in 1000 years, no sul'dam has ~ever~ thought of that.... Right.

**To believe otherwise, is to say that Tuon, in her extremely limited experience with the a'dam, can do what a team of experienced professionals said could not be done.**

Wow, a young person doing something seemingly impossible....

Gee, where ~haven't~ we seen that before?

**Fact: Seanchan damane are animals.**

False; they're property.

**Fact: Tuon is very good at training people.**

Where's that fact presented?

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-01

"No, it's not."

What is it then? If you take someone and give them an attribute they did not have before, that is training by definition.

"Wow, a young person doing something seemingly impossible....

Gee, where ~haven't~ we seen that before? "

The difference here is that Tuon is not a major character the way the others you are referring to are(Flinn doesn't count; Nynaeve did it first)

Callandor: 2005-03-01

**The difference here is that Tuon is not a major character the way the others you are referring to are(Flinn doesn't count; Nynaeve did it first)**

LOL

Wow... so a person has to be a major character to do something that is seemingly impossible. This is getting ridiculous.

Plus, if you don't think that Tuon is a major character now (or going to be), it's no wonder you believe this theory.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-02

Too easy.

First, YOU say that Tuon has used an a'dam. You can imply, infer, or cobble together any justification you like, there is NO scene showing Tuon using an a'dam.

Tuon training damane without an a'dam? Does that fall in the category of, in your words, "a young person doing something seemingly impossible"? Ha Ha Ha.

"It was said the High Lady in truth needed no der'sul'dam to train her property or sul'dam." That is training people. Duh. I said so in the very next line "sul'dam are people", not to mention the other slaves she owns.

Seanchan damane are animals.

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan

"Note that the der'sul'dam and sul'dam, while the highest ranked of the exotic animal handlers, are definitely included in this group, indicating that once again the Seanchan belief that damane are not people but dangerous animals."

Four for four. Any other facts you wish to try disprove?

SDog: 2005-03-02

GLotD wrote:

**To believe otherwise, is to say that Tuon, in her extremely limited experience with the a'dam, can do what a team of experienced professionals said could not be done.**

And what evidence do you have that Tuon has extemely limited experience with the a'dam?

The term sul'dam refers to a rank, not some mystical condition. Tuon could not become a sul'dam, because she already outranks everyone but her mother. Becoming a sul'dam would be a demotion, and is unthinkable anyway because she is of the Blood.

It is clear to me that Tuon could have free use of the a'dam and damane, basically as a hobby. As she puts it, she trains horses and damane for fun. Who is to tell her she cannot use the a'dam? It's not as if using an a'dam somehow diminishes her honor--far from it. Sul'dam is a position of high honor, so a person who can train damane, but is of the Blood, has that much more honor.

To address Yaga's point about training obedience... Do you honestly think Tuon would make that her hobby? How exciting and rewarding would that be? Moreover, would she refer to it as "training damane" if it were different from what the sul'dam do? Clearly there would be a confusion in her conversations if she meant something besides personally training them to channel.

Again, remember that there is no loss of face in being able to use the a'dam--at least not yet. Tuon could train damane to channel all day long, if she wanted.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-03

"so a person has to be a major character to do something that is seemingly impossible"

Not explicitly, but let's look at some impossible things that were later proven to actually be possible, and the number of books they have featured in:

Moiraine: went to eotw twice(5 books)

Nynaeve:proved severing could be healed(10 books)

Rand:cleansed the taint(10 books)

Egwene:proved cuendillar could still be made(10 books)

Elayne:first in westlands to rediscover how to make ter'angreal(10 books; TEotW admittedly very minor)

Need I go on? Tuon with two books hardly fits the list.

"if you don't think that Tuon is a major character now (or going to be), it's no wonder you believe this theory"

Maybe she will be able to make the list if she stays with it for the remaining books, but she is not a major character in the same way as Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Lan etc. More second string, as it were, like Tam al'Thor or Pedron Niall.

"Do you honestly think Tuon would make that her hobby? "

I'm sure that she would much rather be a leash holder, but since I don't believe she can do that, yes, I would say that her training damane in obedience is a realistic alternative. Damane are the backbone of Seanchan power, and anything that allows someone to get involved in this process will carry a measure of honour.

"Moreover, would she refer to it as "training damane" if it were different from what the sul'dam do? "

Yes, if she wanted to be seen to be getting in on the act of strengthening the power core of the Seanchan military. It's also possible that she is indulging a private fantasy, since she clearly wanted to be a sul'dam, given the fact that she asked to be tested.

"Clearly there would be a confusion in her conversations if she meant something besides personally training them to channel"

Not necessarily. Everyone in Seanchan knows who she is, so realistically any sul'dam learning that Tuon is training damaneX for a day will know that damaneX is not receiving Power-based training.

Callandor: 2005-03-04

**Seanchan damane are animals.**

**TITLE: Great Hunt

CHAPTER: 29 - Seanchan

"A peaceful trader?" Egeanin mused. "In that case, you will be free to go once you have sworn fealty again." She noticed his glances and turned to smile at the women with the pride of ownership. "You admire my damane? She cost me dear, but she was worth every coin. *Few but nobles own a damane, and most are ~property~ of the throne.* She is strong, trader. She could have broken your ship to splinters, had I wished it so."**

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 1 - Time to be Gone

Egeanin's head jerked, and for a moment he thought she would ignore his question. "Talk from Renna, I'll wager," she said, with a dismissive gesture. *"Some sul'dam talk about that nonsense to frighten recalcitrant damane when they're new-leashed, but nobody's done it in, oh, six or seven hundred years. Not many, anyway, and people who can't control their ~property~ without . . . mutilation . . . are sei'mosiev to start."* Her mouth twisted in loathing, though whether for mutilation or sei'mosiev was unclear.**

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: 1 - Time to be Gone

The Seanchan woman glared to match his and planted her fists on her hips, leaning forward with her feet astride as though she were on the deck of a ship and about to berate a fumble-witted sailor. *"The High Lady Suroth doesn't own these damane, you lump-brained farmer! They're ~property~ of the Empress, may she live forever.* Suroth might as well slit her own wrists straightaway as order something like that for Imperial damane. That's even if she would; I've never heard of her mistreating her own. I'll try to put this in terms you can understand. If your dog runs away, you don't maim it. You switch the dog so it knows not to do that again, and you put it back in the kennel. Besides, damane are just too - "

~"Too valuable,"~ Mat finished for her dryly. He had heard that till he was sick of it.**

Argue whether you believe animals get value versus property.

**First, YOU say that Tuon has used an a'dam. You can imply, infer, or cobble together any justification you like, there is NO scene showing Tuon using an a'dam.**

Show the scene where a damane is trained without an a'dam present. Once you realize you can't do that, who trains the damane? Sul'dam. What do all sul'dam have in common? They are potential channelers.

I really miss the giant logic leap here, since even Mat can make the brilliant deduction (given an overabudence of people's opinions of Mat's intelligence, especially concerning women).

**Not explicitly,...**

Thank you, that's the important part. Now change what you said from being a fact, and I have no disagreements.

**Maybe she will be able to make the list if she stays with it for the remaining books, but she is not a major character in the same way as Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Lan etc. More second string, as it were, like Tam al'Thor or Pedron Niall.**

There is a much more specialized system that needs to be made about the characters here.

There is one main character to every stroy -- obviously this is Rand al'Thor.

For the Wheel of Time, there are also main characters. We really have three: Rand, Mat, and Perrin (debate whether there's more but they are the major ones for the sheer volume of the books they take up or are apart of).

Then secondary characters: Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, Faile, Fain, Thom, Moiraine (I could see), Lan, Loial, and Tuon (I misspoke when I said major character; probably a few others I just don't feel like typing right now).

Then whoever you wish can be made tertiary characters: basically anything between once named characters to those who we simply never get their POV. There's so many of these I don't even feel like giving examples.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-04

"Thank you, that's the important part. Now change what you said from being a fact, and I have no disagreements"

"Not explicitly" just means that it is not a definite thing, in the way that "to channel, you must be capable of touching the source" is an explicit fact. The connection between acheiving the impossible and being a mojor character is only implicit, in the same way as the connection between agelessness and being Aes Sedai is implicit. We do not know that anly the Oath Rod causes agelessness, but the implications are enough for us to instantly connect ageless appearance with Aes Sedai. We have no evidience of something believed impossible being acheived by anyone who was not a main character.

"There is one main character to every stroy -- obviously this is Rand al'Thor.

For the Wheel of Time, there are also main characters. We really have three: Rand, Mat, and Perrin"

So what story is it that Rand alone is the main character of if it's not WoT? I'm confused by this, please explain.

SDog: 2005-03-04

**We have no evidience of something believed impossible being acheived by anyone who was not a main character.**

Sure we do. Damer Flinn is far from a main character, and he independently discovered how the heal Stilling.

**I'm sure that she would much rather be a leash holder, but since I don't believe she can do that, yes, I would say that her training damane in obedience is a realistic alternative. Damane are the backbone of Seanchan power, and anything that allows someone to get involved in this process will carry a measure of honour.**

But she doesn't need that honor. And anyway, you are basically saying, "since I believe what I believe, I believe what I believe." OK...I guess I shouldn't have asked for a belief.

But ultimately, we have no evidence whatsoever that someone other than a sul'dam can train damane in any way. You can make special exceptions for your theory, but those must be taken with a grain of salt.

I'll grant that there is no direct evidence that Tuon is a latent channeler. But since when as RJ used direct evidence on a regular basis. As he has mentioned about Asmodean--he expects the readers to be smart enough to figure things out. But in the case of Tuon training channelers in some non-OP way, there isn't even a hint.

Callandor: 2005-03-04

**So what story is it that Rand alone is the main character of if it's not WoT? I'm confused by this, please explain.**

I'm confused as heck by you're question. Every story (all stories in the world -- OUR world), has one main character. There is always one main character to a story -- for the Wheel of Time, this is Rand al'Thor. The major characters of the Wheel of Time are Mat, Perrin, and include Rand (he's obviously a major character if he's the main one ;)).

**The connection between acheiving the impossible and being a mojor character is only implicit, in the same way as the connection between agelessness and being Aes Sedai is implicit.**

**We do not know that anly the Oath Rod causes agelessness, but the implications are enough for us to instantly connect ageless appearance with Aes Sedai.**

No, RJ has confirmed that link, as well as the evidence before hand of it. Go to http://www.dragonmount.com/ interviews/2003-04-23.php to hear RJ talk about the effects of the Oath Rod on Aes Sedai. I would give you the specific number of the interview, but I don't have that topic marked from my notes, but it's there.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-05

Callandor, pets are property. You own a horse, you own a damane, the Seanchan see no difference. Damane are pets, useful pets to be sure, but do you really think that you can't be an animal and be property at the same time?

Every quote I provided answers every concern you had. I was right on every fact you disputed.

Oatman: 2005-03-05

There are a great many other "impossible" things people havve achieved that you havnt mentioned in your focus on the main to prove your argument.

Flinn - Discovered how to heal stilling

Aram - Became a tinker wielding a sword

Shael - Became a maiden of the spear despite being a wetlander

Couladin - Gained the markings of a clan chief without going through Rhuidian

Sevanna - Became a female clan chief and wise one without visiting Rhuidian

Rands University students - creating various machines thought to be pipe-dreams.

Julian and Thom - Putting up with Elaynes and Nyneaves compamny for an extended period of time.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-05

In response to Otman's:

"There are a great many other "impossible" things people havve achieved that you havnt mentioned in your focus on the main to prove your argument."

In that case allow me to adress your concerns.

"Flinn - Discovered how to heal stilling"

Does not belong on a list of "doing the impossible". Nynaeve was the first. By the time Flinn does it, it has already been done.

"Aram - Became a tinker wielding a sword"

Not impossible, nothing physically prevents Tinkers from taking up arms, only their cultural beliefs. Also, he wasn't the first to do this. The original Aiel, as seen by Rand in Rhuidean, were.

"Couladin - Gained the markings of a clan chief without going through Rhuidian"

Those were illusions created by Asmodean in order to keep Rand from full control of the Aiel. They are not the same as the markings worn by Rand and the chiefs.

"Sevanna - Became a female clan chief and wise one without visiting Rhuidian"

Similar to above: technically, she is not a clan chief, nor is she a wise one. She merely acts in these capacities.

"Rands University students - creating various machines thought to be pipe-dreams"

Generally speaking, these are just innovative ideas, not actual impossibilities. The train-thing does not work yet, so steam powered travle is still a pipe dream.

"Shael - Became a maiden of the spear despite being a wetlander"

This happened off screen, and so can be considered irrelevant to this discussion. The point of making only major characters acheive the impossible is a literary device being used by the author. If it happens off screen, it is not relevant to discussions on characters importance to the plot in relation to their accomplishments.

Any more you want to add to this list?

SDog wrote:

"Sure we do. Damer Flinn is far from a main character, and he independently discovered how the heal Stilling"

The independence part is not an issue. Nynaeve had already done this believed impossible deed before Flinn, so Flinn did not do the impossible.

"But ultimately, we have no evidence whatsoever that someone other than a sul'dam can train damane in any way"

In fact, i have already given examples of ways in which damane are seen to be trained without the use of the a'dam. To summarise those points, they mostly occur when egwene is being held by the Seanchan and include lectures and blackmail.

"But she doesn't need that honor"

Perhaps not, but my point was more that it would in no way dishonour her to train damane in obedience.

Callandor said:

"I'm confused as heck by you're question. Every story (all stories in the world -- OUR world), has one main character. There is always one main character to a story -- for the Wheel of Time, this is Rand al'Thor. The major characters of the Wheel of Time are Mat, Perrin, and include Rand (he's obviously a major character if he's the main one"

Does this mean, then, that where you said before that Mat and Perrin were "main" characters, you in fact meant major?(the implication being that theyare less important than Rand)

If so, this makes much more sense, even if I believe you are wrong. How can one person crucial to the central plot(the victory of the Light over the Shadow) be any more important than another? Without Perrin and Mat, Rand is going to lose.

**We do not know that anly the Oath Rod causes agelessness, but the implications are enough for us to instantly connect ageless appearance with Aes Sedai.**

Firstly, let me change "anly" to only, and then lets see if that makes any difference. Do you think you could give me some of that evidence that only the OAth Rod causes agelessness(apologies if this is in the interview, I couldnt get the interviews to download)

Are you still unable to answer my question "What is it then? If you take someone and give them an attribute they did not have before, that is training by definition." I really would appreciate an answer, since I'll concede defeat if you can give me another word, that isn't an acronym of to train, for this process.

haertchen: 2005-03-05

I believe that Tuon can channel just because it seems like RJ's style-in a book with 1% channelers overall, practically every woman we meet can channel. Also, I *cannot* imagine Mat not marrying a channeler, not the way his life has gone.

: 2005-03-05

**Callandor, pets are property. You own a horse, you own a damane, the Seanchan see no difference. Damane are pets, useful pets to be sure, but do you really think that you can't be an animal and be property at the same time?**

As I said, you can debate amongst yourselves if you think animals have value.

And unless people are plain ignoring things, the Seanchan damane can be extremely influenced by Southern slavery as well as Roman society (Roman is more strong, since their empire actually was based off slaves; however, South Carolina being one of the largest slave states in the Confederacy, it's hard not to see some parallels). Both viewed their slaves as property -- not animals.

**Does not belong on a list of "doing the impossible". Nynaeve was the first. By the time Flinn does it, it has already been done.**

So what, Flinn's discovery, totally seperate from Nynaeve's, was not something seemingly impossible? Now, you're just ignoring things.

**Those were illusions created by Asmodean in order to keep Rand from full control of the Aiel. They are not the same as the markings worn by Rand and the chiefs.**

No, they weren't the same thing; yet they were seemingly impossible to get.

**Similar to above: technically, she is not a clan chief, nor is she a wise one. She merely acts in these capacities.**

And is accepted as them. She is nothing more then a common woman in total black and white looking. She is not a Wise One -- only accepted as one. She is not a clan chief -- only accepted as one.

Heck this is similar to Egwene being Amyrlin without really being an Aes Sedai yet. Something seemingly impossible by definition, yet there (Egwene's is technically possible all a long, just totally against custom, like many things).

**Generally speaking, these are just innovative ideas, not actual impossibilities. The train-thing does not work yet, so steam powered travle is still a pipe dream.**

If it moves (as it did), it works.

**This happened off screen, and so can be considered irrelevant to this discussion. The point of making only major characters acheive the impossible is a literary device being used by the author. If it happens off screen, it is not relevant to discussions on characters importance to the plot in relation to their accomplishments.**

On screen or off screen, facts are always relevant. Heck, Damer Flinn Healed the Aes Sedai off screen -- yet that is ~QUITE~ relavent to this discussions and others.

**The independence part is not an issue. Nynaeve had already done this believed impossible deed before Flinn, so Flinn did not do the impossible.**

Sure he did; he discovered it on his own, without any other help from anyone other then his own innivation. That's just like Nynaeve discovering it, only it was a few months afterwards.

**Perhaps not, but my point was more that it would in no way dishonour her to train damane in obedience.**

Compared to being the Daughter of the Nine Moons and Heir to the Seanchan Throne, it could easily be.

**If so, this makes much more sense, even if I believe you are wrong. How can one person crucial to the central plot(the victory of the Light over the Shadow) be any more important than another? Without Perrin and Mat, Rand is going to lose.**

Well, besides Rand being the Dragon Reborn, and the largest of the three in ta'veren power (you know, like ~those~ two facts don't make him a bit more importatnt), it comes down to the definition of a main character.

The main character is the one the readers are supposed to empathize with. A lot of characters are of course worth of sharing our feelings with them.

Also, the main character is the one encountering the greatest amount of tension. What's the center to all stories? Conflict. Conflict drives the story forward and whoever is central to that conflict is the main character.

A lot of the characters experience tension (Perrin's entire family being killed certainly is tension), however few of them experience the tension internally rather then externally. Perrin may grieve for his family, but he knows quite well what he's gonna do about it. Another thing is with Faile being captured. Certainly full of tension for Perrin (I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get a series of ulcers from it), however it is not internal. He never asks himself, "What do I do now?" For he knows, and he does -- he needs to find Faile, so he sends out searchers; he needs to rescue her, so he needs information; etc. He may concern himself with the ~how~, but never the ~what~. The closest Perrin comes to internal tension about Faile, is when he first learns about possible Seanchan allies to tackle the Shaido -- yet he hardly even flickers in deciding that even though it's like accepting the Dark One's help, he needs to get to Faile.

Rand on the other hand, goes through this internal conflict a hell of a lot. My job is made easy here by simply saying Lews Therin for internal conflict, but it goes beyond that. Once Rand knows he's the Dragon Reborn, he denies that he his for over 2 books. He waits after taking Callandor in The Shadow Rising over what to do now, as well as how to go about doing it.

If you want to take another example over it, in Braveheart, who is the main character? Not William Wallace -- Robert the Bruce. Who does the film open and end with? Robert the Bruce. Whose got the greatest tension between Robert?

1. His father -- possesing what can be deemed the "death" qualities (making it evenmore symbolic with his case of leprosy), which are that Robert must do everything in his power to keep his lands, possessions, and titles. Anything and everything from lying to cheating to betraying. The philosophy here is nobility is what counts, nothing else.

2. William Wallace -- possessing the "life" qualities, who has no care for lands, possessions, and titles or at least not when it counts in comparison to honor, justice, and personal integrity. Robert is inspired by Wallace's priniciples and philosophy.

So the tension starts in Robert. Does he follow his father's rules, and do anything for his nobility? Or follow the man who taught me what I know is right?

The tension leads to Robert's innevitable choice, and the resolution of the film.

It's just impossible to see anyone by Rand al'Thor as the main character in the Wheel of Time.

**Firstly, let me change "anly" to only, and then lets see if that makes any difference. Do you think you could give me some of that evidence that only the OAth Rod causes agelessness(apologies if this is in the interview, I couldnt get the interviews to download)**

Ah, pointing out typoes already. Grammar Nazis abound now-a-days, generally when being proven wrong. Try to get a quicktime or java patch to download the interviews, because if you wish to argue then, I'll know to simply give up and claim ignorance. However, if you wish to not do that (don't know why though...), go here:

http://www.arkane- systems.net/faqs/WOTFAQ/2_nondark/2.3_ one-power/2.3.03_oath-rod.html

at the Wheel of Time FAQ, because I don't wish to drive this thread further afield for proving known facts.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-06

"So what, Flinn's discovery, totally seperate from Nynaeve's, was not something seemingly impossible?"

No, it wasn't, because, and pay close attention here, IT HAD ALREADY BEEN DONE. After something has been done once, it is definitively not impossible.

"Damer Flinn Healed the Aes Sedai off screen -- yet that is ~QUITE~ relavent to this discussions and others"

As I pointed out above, no it isn't. FLINN DID NOT DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.

"No, they weren't the same thing; yet they were seemingly impossible to get"

Anybody with the ability to control their channelling could have done it. This was not doing the impossible.

"Grammar Nazis abound now-a-days, generally when being proven wrong"

How the Donald Duck am I a grammar Nazi for correcting my own typo? I still maintain (having read the FAQ) that there is no evidence that only(important point) the OAth Rod causes ageless appearance. I know that the Oath Rod does cause agelessness.

I'm also not saying that there are people running around Randland with an ageless appearance that are not AS. Just that there is no evidence to say that they can not exist. But please, feel free to provide me with those quotes.

"It's just impossible to see anyone by Rand al'Thor as the main character in the Wheel of Time."

I would argue that WoT has multiple main characters, because it is not a single story.

"If it moves (as it did), it works"

So if IRL someone has a heart transplant and dies thirty seconds later of heart failure, did his transplant work? Of course not.

To get back to the point, there is no direct evidence that Tuon has ever used an a'dam. The only evidence to indicate this is that she states that she has trained damane. As I have repeatedly pointed out, there are methods other than the a'dam that could be used. I'm still waiting for Callandor to tell me what making somebody obedient is if it isn't training.

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-07

This may be a red herring, but remember how Mat thought that Tuon was much younger than she actually was? What if she began slowing early, before she fully developed. She seems to think that she hasn't aged normally.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-07

"What if she began slowing early"

This implies something entirely different from her using an a'dam; it implies that she has been touching the source actively, which none of the sul'dam do. It is not the ability to channel, but rather the act of channeling, that causes a person to slow.

"Mat thought that Tuon was much younger than she actually was?"

This is most likely as a result of her shaved head. Shaving the head causes it to appear larger, which in turn results in a younger-looking appearance.

Oatman: 2005-03-07

I'd like to point out to Yaga, if somthing is impossible it has never been done and never WILL be done. however Flinn does belong in the group of people doing the seemingly impossible (the improbable) as he healed stilling without being told and without knowing, or having anyone around him knowing, that it had already been done. In this way, he did accomplish the "impossible".

You asked for more?

The entire 2 rivers defeating the Trolloc army without any military training and being ridiculously outnumbered. Place it down to Perrin if you want to but he didnt do it all.

Birgette, returning to the world of the living without being reborn.

Gareth, successfully besieged Tar'Valon.

Theres probably more but I'm lazy.

clarkkd: 2005-03-08

Alivia

Allegiance: Killing Sul'dam.

Slightly taller than Nynaeve, with blue hawk like eyes with fine lines. She has golden hair with a few streaks of white. Collared at 13 or 14 years, she was Damane for 400 years. She was captured in Altara and given to Elayne to deal with. Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve in the One Power. That is, as strong as any Chosen.

Once she realised the Seanchan were not going to appear again, she became very bold, stating she wants to kill Sul'dam. She is now sometimes upsetting Nynaeve's composure, however has little knowledge of the world except how to kill. She is going to help Rand to die.

Aloisia Nemosni

Allegiance: The Kin.

An oil merchant is tear, she is the oldest member of the Kin at almost 600 years old.

Asra

Allegiance: The Kin.

Title(s): Wise Woman.

A Domani, she looks approximately 27. She is hardly stronger than a novice, but a good healer.

Reanne Corly

Allegiance: The Kin.

Title(s): Eldest Elder, Member Council of Elders - Knitting Circle.

With sharp blue eyes and smile lines on her face, she has more grey hair than not. She is as strong as Sheriam in the One Power and is 411 years old. She was a memeber of the circle that worked the Bowl of Winds. She arranges transport ships for small traders.

I found the following at:

http://dmt.customer.netspace.net.au/wot/channel/kin.htm#callie

So why did I find this. The agless face of the Aes Sedia, is from being bound to the oath rod. If it where anything else the above chanellers would have had the look by now, seeing as how most of them are 400+ years old it is very hard to believe anything else.

Now then all channelers slow! Elyane verifies this after her and Nyneve leave the Knitting Circles home office (so to speak)

No one mentions at least on this side of the world: "Hey why do you look so young"?

Lets look at Nyneve: from the above website:

Allegiance: The Light, Egwene, Lan.

Title(s): Former Wisdom of Emonds Field, Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah, Mashiara, Maryim, Nana.

Favorite Saying: Sometimes it would be good to just hit people until they see reason.

26 years old. Slender and short, young and pretty. She has dark colouring with a dark braid pulled over her shoulder. Very strong willed, she always does what she believes must be done, never backing down from her duty.

From the source we see she is 26, but how old does she look? IIRC she does not look more then 18?

Lets compare Nyneve to Toun:

Toun does not know she can channel

Toun does not channel or experience the One Power unless she is "complete" with the adam (limited channeling)

Toun looks 16: (part of this is her oversized clothing, her bald head?, and her latent ability to channel)

Nyneve did not know she could channel

Nyneve Channeled when herbs failed (in other words she channeled in frequently)

Nyneve looks 18? (which has nothing to do with clothing or bald heads just the ability to channel)

Now more importantly we need to see if any of the half trained sul'dams look young for their true ages, finding this will drive the nail in the coffin so to speak.

By half trained I mean the way in which the sul'dam "develops an affinity" to channeling and not the forsaken quote of "Half trained".

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-08

Another very strange thought, what if Tuon knew that she could channel? What if she has the spark? She may have used the Sul'dam training to help keep her ablilities from getting her collared. This wouldn't proably work for normal people, but the DotNM could get away with the one Sul'dam test and not have to take the additional damane tests.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-08

"The entire 2 rivers defeating the Trolloc army without any military training and being ridiculously outnumbered. Place it down to Perrin if you want to but he didnt do it all."

He did a lot of it though. Other things that helped:

Aes Sedai enhanced catapults; Tam alThor, a former officer in the Companions of Illian, was in charge of the training; Lord Luc killed many mydraal before the battle began; old blood of Manetheren being strong in the Two Rivers; Two Rivers longbows are devastating weapons that all the Two Rivers men are highly capable with; Faile's reinforcements created a simple but effective trap for the Trolloc army; desperation makes people do extraordinary things; they started the fight thinking that they would have real soldiers as backup.

"Gareth, successfully besieged Tar'Valon."

He did what now? Somebody want to go tell Elaida that?

"Birgette, returning to the world of the living without being reborn."

The kind of thing that I am arguing will only be done by a major character is something that is explicitly stated by a knowledgeable person to be impossible. Thus IIRC Birgitte's untimely ripping from TAR does not count.

"if somthing is impossible it has never been done and never WILL be done"

I know that. I was using the phrase "doing the impossible" as a quick way of saying "doing something that was previously believed to be impossible",and I assumed that was obvious from the context.

"Flinn does belong in the group of people doing the seemingly impossible (the improbable) as he healed stilling without being told and without knowing, or having anyone around him knowing, that it had already been done"

But he was not the one to remove Healing Stilling from the list of Things Believed Impossible. Nynaeve was.

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-08

Flinn however, healed a stilled sister completly. Nyn only partly healed Suian and Leane. This was something considered impossible.

Jiana: 2005-03-08

I read this awhile back but did not reply because IMO, it is almost a given that Tuon has the potential to channel. However, having read the arguments here, I couldn't resist. Is it coming to blows yet? :)

First: Whoever remarked that Flinn DID do the impossible (apologies, I can't recall who it was), I am in agreement there. He had no prior knowledge that it had already been done... Therefore he and those around him STILL viewed that type of healing as impossible, so it DOES count.

Second: The ageless look. You wanted proof that the Oath Rod was the ONLY thing that could cause it. How about, *we have seen NO OTHER characters in the books other than Aes Sedai who have the ageless face!* There are others who appear younger than their age; this has nothing to do with the Oath Rod. Can you name one character, major, minor, main, or secondary, who has an ageless face and is not bound by the Oath Rod (or one like it, such as whatever the Black Ajah uses)?

Third: Being from South Carolina and having been fed its history practically from the cradle, I have a little to offer here on the point of slavery. Southern plantation owners and others who owned slaves DID see their slaves as property... but also as less than human. Now granted there could be many other interpretations, but what is one thing that is less than human? An animal. Even after the abolition of slavery, the newly free men and women were still viewed as less than human, for a very long period. They were not believed to deserve the same rights as their former owners, *because they were considered less.* Now to elaborate (or ramble, if you prefer) something which is less than human, to me, is just a thing. A "thing," which lives and breathes and has blood in its veins BUT IS NOT CONSIDERED HUMAN is what? An animal.

Fourth: The marks on Couladin's arms. Admittedly, this was not exactly impossible, but only the Forsaken knew that. To the Aiel, Couladin having the marks on his arms without having been to Rhuidean IS impossible, so I think that counts too.

Fifth: Sevanna. She is acknowledged as clan chief and Wise One, also without having been to Rhuidean. Impossible? Not exactly. Unprecedented? Most certainly. But often in these books the word "impossible" gets mixed up with the word "unprecedented."

There, now. I feel better. lol. :)

Callandor: 2005-03-08

**As I pointed out above, no it isn't. FLINN DID NOT DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.**

You're skewing things that aren't. This isn't a race to the patent office for the invention of the telephone. Flinn invented the same type of Healing, COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY SEPERATE FROM INFLUENCES. He did it on his own. Just like Nynaeve did. Yet you say she did the "impossible" and not Flinn, because she did it first.

The circumstances are the exact same for both events.

**Anybody with the ability to control their channelling could have done it. This was not doing the impossible.**

Really? Then why didn't any of the Wise Ones with a little ambition do the same thing? You're looking for people who did the seemingly impossble, yet they are only seemingly impossible in ~your~ contexts.

The Aiel having two chief of chiefs is clearly "seemingly impossible." Yet it happened.

**How the Donald Duck am I a grammar Nazi for correcting my own typo? I still maintain (having read the FAQ) that there is no evidence that only(important point) the OAth Rod causes ageless appearance. I know that the Oath Rod does cause agelessness.**

Instead of wasting time on this point, I'm going to quote the FAQ, for which you ~somehow~ did not read the dang point.

**Agelessness

The question is: is the "ageless" look attributed to Aes Sedai in the Third Age something unique to them, or is this appearance attained by all channelers? If it is only found in modern AS, then it seems likely that the look is caused by the Oath Rod-- one of the only major differences between the current Aes Sedai and other channelers.

What is the Ageless Look? It is not mere youthfulness. People looking at AS with the look are unable to put any age at all to them. Here is evidence:

1. In [TDR: 3, News from the Plain, 23] Perrin describes Moiraine: "She was a slender, dark-haired woman no taller than his shoulder, and pretty, with the ageless quality of all Aes Sedai who had worked with the One Power for a time. He could not put any age at all to her..."

2. In [LOC: Prologue, The First Message, 25-26], Elayne describes Janya Sedai and Anaiya Sedai: "Janya Sedai was quite neat, every short dark hair tidy around the ageless face that marked Aes Sedai who had worked long with the Power.... "You are making great strides, Elayne," Anaiya said calmly. The bluff-faced woman was always calm. 'Motherly' was the word to describe her, and comforting usually, though Aes Sedai features made putting an age to her impossible."

3. In [ACOS: 1, High Chasaline, 60] Perrin describes the TAS who were captured, discounting the ones who were stilled: "The others looked ageless, of course, maybe in their twenties, maybe in their forties, changing from one glance to the next, always uncertain. That was what their faces said, though several showed gray in their hair." From this, we know that if an observer can put a definite age to a channeler, then the channeler DOES NOT have the Ageless Look.

Note: the Ageless Look takes some time to manifest itself after a woman is raised to full AS. 1) Elaida's spy in Caemlyn is "'A Red Sister....Newly raised, so she can easily pass for other than AS.' She meant that the woman had not yet taken on the agelessness..." [TFOH: Prologue, The First Sparks Fall, 16] 2) In [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 408], Elayne says, "I don't think anyone has ever reached that [the Ageless Look] until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more."

Now, let us look at the descriptions of all other channelers, to see that they do NOT have the Ageless Look.

A Look at non-Aes Sedai channelers

Aiel Wise Ones

1. Perrin describing the WOs after rescuing Rand: "Every Wise One who had come here from Cairhien was able to channel, though none had the ageless look." [ACOS: 1, High Chasaline, 64] Amys is one of these WOs--she appears in [ACOS: 2, The Butcher's Yard, 80].

2. Sevanna, describing Graendal, lets slip what is perhaps the most glaring evidence that the ageless look is actually different from what the Wise Ones have:

**As dark of face and hair as he [Sammael], and beautiful enough to tighten Sevanna's mouth, she wore red silk, cut to expose even more of her bosom than Someryn showed.... Right then, she did not care whether the woman could move mountains or barely light a candle. She must be Aes Sedai. She did not have the face, yet some Sevanna had seen did not. [She's probably thinking about Egwene, who was masquerading as AS]

[ACOS: 20, Patterns Within Patterns, 353]**

If the WOs had the same ageless look as Aes Sedai, Sevanna would not think of "the face" as an identifying feature of AS.

3. In [TSR: 23, Beyond the Stone, 262], we have a description of Melaine from Egwene's point of view, before she knows that Melaine can channel. "The last of the four, a handsome woman with golden-red hair, no more than ten or fifteen years older than Egwene, hesitated." Note that Eg puts a definite age to her.

4. Egwene, describing Amys: "Suddenly Amys's youthfully smooth features beneath that white hair leaped out at her for what they were, something very close to Aes Sedai agelessness." [TSR: 23, Beyond the Stone, 262]. "Amys was white-haired, too... but she did not look old. She and Melaine could both channel -- not many Wise Ones could -- and she had something of the look of the Aes Sedai agelessness about her." [TFOH: 5, Among the Wise Ones, 99] Note that Amys is close to ageless, has something of the look, but NOT the exact same look.

5. In [TGH: 28, A New Thread in the Pattern, 345], Urien meets Ingtar's party, and says to Verin, "No, Wise One. But you have the look of those who have made the journey to Rhuidean and survived. The years do not touch the WOs in the same way as other women." This seems to tell us that the WOs do have the Ageless look. However, the huge quantity of contradictory quotes, especially Perrin's and Sevanna's above, leads us to believe that either RJ changed his mind, or Urien was mistaken, or Urien only meant that Verin doesn't look as old as her grey hair would indicate.

Sea Folk Windfinders:

1. Elayne and Ny do not recognize Jorin, the Windfinder of Wavedancer, as a channeler until Elayne actually SEES her channel [TSR: 20, Winds Rising, 233]. If she had the distinctive Ageless look, they'd have noted it immediately. This is not merely a case of Jorin being young; she is not. Her sister Coine has "gray touches in her black hair and fine wrinkles at the corners of her...eyes....It was a surprise that the two were sisters. Elayne could see the resemblance, but Jorin looked much younger." [TSR: 19, The Wavedancer, 217]. Furthermore, Jorin has children older than Elayne. [TSR: 20, Winds Rising, 234]

2. The Windfinders Rand meets in [ACOS: 34, Ta'veren, 535-536] look young, not ageless:

**Harine did a lot of the talking, and so did a young, pretty woman in green brocade with eight earrings altogether, but the pair in plain silk put in occasional comments....Harine turned so calmly there might never have been any hasty conference. "This is Shalon din Togara Morning Tide, Windfinder to Clan Shodein," she said with a small bow toward the woman in green brocade, "and this is Derah din Delaan Rising Wave...."**

**She [Derah] made a small bow toward the fourth woman, in yellow. "This is Taval din Chanai Nine Gulls, Windfinder of White Spray." Only three rings hung from each of Taval's ears, fine like those of the Sailmistress. She looked younger than Shalon, no older than himself.**

Seanchan Damane and Sul'dam

1. In [TGH: 40, Damane, 477] Egwene sees Renna, her new sul'dam: "With long, dark hair and big brown eyes, she was pretty, and perhaps as much as ten years older than Nynaeve." Note she can put a specific age to Renna.

2. In [TGH: 40, Damane, 482], a damane is described: "One of the other sul'dam snorted loudly; she was linked to a pretty dark-haired woman in her middle years who kept her eyes on her hands." Again, we have a specific age.

3. [WH: 11, Ideas of Importance, 264] describes the former damane Alivia as having "fine lines at the corners of her blue eyes and threads of white in her golden yellow hair." And a telling quote from Cyndane's POV at the end of the book: "With saidar in her, Cyndane could see the faint lines at the corners of the woman's eyes. Not one of those who called themselves Aes Sedai, then" [WH: 35, With The Choedan Kal, 648]. Alivia is not Ageless.

Forsaken and Other Old-time Aes Sedai:

1. AOL Aes Sedai don't seem to have had the look, although we have little evidence one way or the other. Plus, aging was weird in the AOL. Jonai [TSR: 26, The Dedicated, 300] is 63 years old and considers himself young. Jonai doesn't mention his Aes Sedai having an "ageless" look, but he doesn't mention her lack of it, either. He says she "looked younger than he." None of the Forsaken are "ageless."

2. Many years after the Breaking, when Rhuidean is built, the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel are described as "ageless." [TSR: 25, The Road to the Spear, 284]. While one of these AS has the same name as one of the AOL AS we see in TSR, it is not the same person. At a post-POD book signing in Dayton, RJ was asked, "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?" RJ's answer: (Pause)"No." (Pause)"No, she was not from the Age of Legends." [from Michael Martin] When was the OR first put into use? The first of the Three Oaths to be put into effect, the Second Oath against making weapons with the Power, was adopted after the War of Power [TGH: 1, The Flame of Tar Valon, 5], [Guide: 24, The White Tower, 213]. However, Sheriam's statement in [TGH: 23, The Testing, 282] implies that the Oath Rod itself wasn't put into use until after the Trolloc Wars. Needless to say, this point needs clarification.

Stilled Aes Sedai:

1. After being stilled, Siuan and Leane look like young women again, not "ageless." [TSR: 47, The Truth of a Viewing, 535] They look different enough that it is hard to recognize them. When they get the OP back, they don't get the Ageless look back, either: In [LOC: 44, The Color of Trust, 556], Mat sees SS after she has been healed by Ny--"He gave her a shallow bow and walked quickly to where a pretty blue-eyed young woman was tapping her foot to the music. She had a sweet mouth, just right for kissing, and he bloody well wanted to enjoy himself."

2. The BA stilled in Tear (Amico) looks different: 'Amico looked young, perhaps younger than her years, but it was not quite the agelessness of Aes Sedai who had worked years with the One Power. "You have sharp eyes, Aviendha, but I don't know if this has anything to do with stilling. It must, though, I suppose. I don't know what else could cause it."' [TSR: 5, Questioners, 84]

3. The TAS stilled by Rand at Dumai's Wells also look young, as opposed to ageless [ACOS: 1, High Chasaline, 60].

Students in the Tower and the Kin:

As noted above, no AS gets the Ageless look until after they've been raised to full AS [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 408]. This is not a matter of time spent channeling, or of strength in the OP, but of passing a certain point-- being raised.

1. Elayne mentions an Accepted who is older than 40, (and thus has been channeling a LONG time, at least as long as some of the younger sisters) and looks YOUNG-- Ny's age, not ageless [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 408].

2. In [ACOS: 31, Mashiara, 497], Elayne and the AS meet the Knitting Circle: "Most wore Ebou Dari dresses, though only one possessed the olive skin; most had lines on their faces and at least a touch of gray; and every last woman of them could channel to one degree or another." No AS has a lined face; it's part of being Ageless.

3. In [ACOS: 23, Next Door to a Weaver, 393], Ny meets Reanne Corly: "From the exchange, she had expected someone younger than Setalle Anan, but Reanne had hair more gray than not and a face full of what might have been smile lines..." Again, Reanne is old-looking.

4. It can't be put any clearer than this: "There had to be a reason why the Kin looked neither ageless nor anything near the ages they claimed." [TPOD: 3, A Pleasant Ride, 94]

Physical Effects of the Oath Rod:

In L:NS and TPOD, we get ample evidence that swearing on an Oath Rod produces a physical effect-- some kind of "tightening" of the skin:

1. [L:NS, 653]: Moiraine, a newly-raised Aes Sedai, thinks, "The Three Oaths still made her skin feel too tight."

2. [L:NS, 662-663]: Merean is describing how Moiraine and SS were punished for putting mice in Elaida's bed the night before they were raised: "I doubt any other women have been raised Aes Sedai while still too tender to sit from their last visit to the Mistress of Novices. Once the Three Oaths tightened on them, they needed cushions a week."

3. [TPOD: 11, Questions and an Oath, 256]: Galina takes an Oath on Sevanna's OR, after being tortured by the Shaido WOs: "Galina felt the oath settle on her, as if she suddenly wore a garment that covered her far too tightly from her scalp to the soles of her feet.... it suddenly seemed as if the burning of her skin was being pressed deep into her flesh..."

4. [TPOD: 26, The Extra Bit, 504]: Seaine reswears the Three Oaths: "Seaine retook the Oaths in turn, each producing a slight momentary pressure everywhere from her scalp to the soles of her feet. In truth, the pressure was difficult to detect at all, with her skin still feeling too tight from retaking the Oath against speaking a lie.

This "tightening of the skin" could be what causes the Ageless Look, kind of like a permanent face lift.

Conclusions on the Ageless Look:

1. The Ageless look is not the result of anything the AS experience until the actual raising ceremony. The Kin are made up of women who trained in the Tower, who flunked out or ran away at various points in their training. This includes women who have passed the Accepted Test, and even women who made it through various parts of the AS Test [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 405-406]. None of them are ageless.

2. The Ageless look is not the result of strength in the OP. The Kin contain women who are fairly strong channelers: "Of course, Reanne could channel -- she had expected that; hoped for it, anyway -- but she had not expected the strength. Reanne was not as strong as Elayne, or even Nicola -- burn that wretched girl! - but she easily equaled Sheriam, say, or Kwamesa or Kiruna." [ACOS: 23, Next Door to a Weaver, 394]. So do the WOs and the Windfinders. Alivia is stronger in the OP than Nynaeve, and doesn't have the Ageless look. The strongest channelers of all, the Forsaken, definitely do not have the Ageless Look.

3. The agelessness is not the result of the total amount of OP channeled. The obvious example of this is the Forsaken. Certain members of the Kin are very old (Reanne Corly is older than 400), and must have channeled as much in their lifetime as any of the younger AS. The same applies to Alivia, who was collared at 13 or 14 years of age, and has been a damane for 400 years [WH: 8, Sea Folk and Kin, 205].

4. Here is the part where Elayne starts putting it all together: After talking about the 40+ Accepted who looks 26, she says, "We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of achieving the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more. Think. You know any sister with gray hair is old, even if you aren't supposed to mention it. So if Reanne slowed, and she must have, how old is she?" [ACOS: 24, The Kin, 408]

Nobody in all of Randland has the Ageless look besides AS raised in the White Tower. Thus, there must be something done to them in the raising ceremony which brings about the Ageless Look. The only such thing of which we know is swearing on the Oath Rod. Given the evidence that we have, it must be the OR which causes agelessness. The only other possibility is that there is something else done in the Raising ceremony which we don't know about and which causes the agelessness. Any such thing would have to involve the woman's channeling ability, in order to explain why the Agelessness vanishes when a person is stilled. There may indeed be other items used in the AS-Raising ceremony besides the Oath Rod, as indicated by this quote: [LOC: 39, Possibilities, 513] "Romanda wanted to use gateways to remove the OR and certain other items...from the Tower so they could make true AS in Salidar while depriving Elaida of the ability." These items may be used in the AS TEST, as opposed to the actual final ceremony, though.

Misc. Notes:

1. Stilling and the Oaths: When an AS is severed from the Source (i.e. stilled), she loses the ageless look, AND is freed from the Oaths. This, combined with the fact that the OR only works on channelers, implies that the OR somehow works by tapping into the AS's own channeling ability, causing the binding and the agelessness.

2. Egwene's Accepted Test: In one of Egwene's three experiences in the ter'angreal used in the test to be raised Accepted, she is the Amyrlin Seat. She looks in a mirror, and sees that she has the Ageless Look [TDR: 22, The Price of the Ring, 203]. A few pages later, she says that she has not sworn on the Oath Rod. If she never held the OR, then why does she look Ageless? Richard Boyé explains this nicely: "The reason is that the ter'angreal weaves illusions and testings from what the subject knows, expects, and fears. How else would it know that Nynaeve wants to marry Lan or that her mother's name was Elnore? Egwene saw herself with the Ageless look because from her knowledge and point of view, she was supposed to." Note that in that same vision, Egwene's Keeper, Beldeine, was stilled, but she still had the Ageless Look. In the real world, we know that stilling removes the Look. However, at that point in time, Egwene didn't know that.**

I'm sorry, but the FAQ did the fantastic job of showing how every society of female channelers we have come in contact with do not have the Ageless look, with the simple exception of the Aes Sedai.

**I would argue that WoT has multiple main characters, because it is not a single story.**

It is all ONE story. One. One One. Rand is the MAIN character of that ONE story; the rest are MAJOR characters, and then the list moves down. Fill in where you wish for the others, but realize that Rand al'Thor is the main character first.

**So if IRL someone has a heart transplant and dies thirty seconds later of heart failure, did his transplant work? Of course not.**

It did for those 30 seconds, since the heart needs to pump the blood to give oxygen to the muscles to make them move. Of course it needs to be made much better -- that's unquestioned.

**But he was not the one to remove Healing Stilling from the list of Things Believed Impossible. Nynaeve was.**

According tho WHO? To the Salidar Aes Sedai? Of course she was. But what about Sarmitsu? Hmm?

**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight

CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - Glimmers of the Pattern

The bells in Sarmitsu's hair chimed at an irritated shake of her head, and she barely managed to stop herself from sighing again. Eighteen of those Dragonsworn sisters remained in Cairhien - Cadsuane had carried some away with her, then sent Alanna back to take off still more - and others of the eighteen besides Sashalle stood higher than she, but the Aiel Wise Ones kept them out of her way. In principle, she disapproved of how that was done - Aes Sedai could not be apprentices, not to anyone! It was outrageous! - but in practice, it did make her job easier. They could not meddle or try to take charge with Wise Ones running their lives and watching over their every hour. Unfortunately, for some reason she could not learn, the Wise Ones looked differently on Sashalle and the other two sisters who had been stilled at Dumai's Wells. Stilled. *She felt a faint shiver at the thought, but only faint, and it would be less if she ever managed to work out how Damer Flinn had Healed what could not be Healed. At least someone could Heal stilling, even if it was a man.* A man channeling. Light, how the horror of yesterday became merely the uneasiness of today, once you grew accustomed.**

To her, Damer Flinn did the impossible here.

Which is again, my point. You're trying to skew things to your definition. Nynaeve did the impossible. Flinn did the impossible. They both did the impossible.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-09

"I'm sorry, but the FAQ did the fantastic job of showing how every society of female channelers we have come in contact with do not have the Ageless look, with the simple exception of the Aes Sedai. "

I know. My point is that there is no proof that the ageless look can only be caused by the Oath Rod. Who is to say that agelessness can not be caused by the effect of some other ter'angreal that has not as yet been seen?

"why didn't any of the Wise Ones with a little ambition do the same thing?"

Because the status of car'a'carn is sacrosanct to the Aiel. Granted, Sevanna seems not to care about that, but she is the only one, and she does not have the ability to do this, and nor did she have the leverage to force a WO to do it for her. Also, unless the Aiel WO's can invert their weaves, the deception wouldn't last two seconds.

"The Aiel having two chief of chiefs is clearly "seemingly impossible." Yet it happened."

No it didn't. There was a fake and the real one. By your logic, every False Dragon was the true Dragon, amd this is patently nonsense.

"According tho WHO? To the Salidar Aes Sedai? Of course she was. But what about Sarmitsu? Hmm?"

Not any specific character in the book, but a general overview of the universe of the Wheel of Time as held by the reader. Prior to Nynaeve's healing of Logain in LoC, the readers were unaware that stilling could b healed. When Flinn did it, we already knew that it could be done. The proof was out there waiting to be found.

"*we have seen NO OTHER characters in the books other than Aes Sedai who have the ageless face!*"

Doesn't mean they aren't out there.

Still no thoughts on an alternative word for the "obedience thing", Callandor?

Callandor: 2005-03-09

**I know. My point is that there is no proof that the ageless look can only be caused by the Oath Rod. Who is to say that agelessness can not be caused by the effect of some other ter'angreal that has not as yet been seen?**

Name another ter'angreal that every single Aes Sedai has come in contact with. I can think of a few:

1. The Accpeted ter'angreal -- obviously fails; Accepted do not have the Ageless look.

2. The Testing ter'angreal -- obviously fails; Moiraine makes no mention of anything physically happening to her after leaving or entering the ter'angreal and no one remarks on any change; and not one of the Kin has the Ageless look, and some of them failed the test for the shawl.

I would say the Warder cloak ter'angreal, however that would more likely affect Warders, not the Aes Sedai, and Aes Sedai of the Red Ajah have the Ageless look and they plainly do not have Warders.

So, tell me Yaga Shura, with all the knowledge you flout, what other ter'angreal is there that all Aes Sedai come in contact with, yet no other culture of female channelers do? I'd love to hear the answer.

**Because the status of car'a'carn is sacrosanct to the Aiel.**

Oh, excuse me, I didn't know that things that are sacred are never abused. Wow, I guess the Catholic church needs to bone up on these books, huh? (yes the pun was intended)

Sevanna doesn't give a damn what's sacred -- she wants to further her position in Aiel society by whatever means. If she could've done what Asmodean did to Couladin, she would've in a heartbeat. But it was "seemingly impossible."

**No it didn't. There was a fake and the real one. By your logic, every False Dragon was the true Dragon, amd this is patently nonsense.**

No, the real Dragon has the Prophecies to proclaim him; Couladin said he went to Rhuidean and the Aiel would've believed him had Rand not truely gone.

**Not any specific character in the book, but a general overview of the universe of the Wheel of Time as held by the reader. Prior to Nynaeve's healing of Logain in LoC, the readers were unaware that stilling could b healed. When Flinn did it, we already knew that it could be done. The proof was out there waiting to be found.**

See this is where this just gets humorous. You say that it must be things thought to be impossible in the Wheel of Time world, and not from any characters, yet you skew it so that every example must fit into you're definition. It's too funny it's nearly sad.

**Doesn't mean they aren't out there.**

Wrong. If this is going to be you're attitude here, please, vacate. We've been given examples from every society of female channelers across the globe, and you, YOU specifically, doubt the evidence and are simply being too dang blind to see it.

And, since you apparently wish to just continue in ignorance of the interview, I'll transcribe it for you:

**Budapest Interview #10, April 23rd, 2003:

Q: Is it true that the Three Oaths make Aes Sedai live shorter then the Kin? Because I thought that when you try to obey the Three Oaths you get into a lot of dangerous situations...

RJ: No. No. It's something -- now you have to be careful here because this might be a spoiler for those that have read the books, read far enough -- the Oath Rod was, is, what was in the Age of Legends called a Binder. It was used on criminals. If you commited a violent act or some sort of crimial act, you were, with a binder, someone who could channel, could be constrained from ever doing that again. And the result of having three of the oaths, is the ageless appearance; one would not produce agelessness. But it did, even one, would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai's lives -- on how long they could live.**

So please, accept that ONLY Aes Sedai have the Ageless look, because ONLY they swear the Three Oaths on the Oath Rod.

clarkkd: 2005-03-09

Hold on a minute!

We see quite clearly that all channelers not bound to or by the oath rod. do not have the ageless look. Period.

For the last 3000 years on the main contentant. Ageless look was associated with Aes Sedia. This thought is exactly how the Sea Folk have been able to hide their number of channelers for so long.

They don't have (Sea Folk) the ageless look.

This is really becomeing a dead horse!

Only Aes Sedia have the Agless look: This is because they swear upon the Oath Rod!

NO Other channeler outside of the Aes Sedia have sworn on the oath rod. Guess what no other society has the ageless look!

They apear younger than they actually are. OR; an age can be placed to them. This is quite different from EVERY discription we see of AES SEDIA. No age can be assigned to them.

By the way I'm holding my breath until I turn blue or until you admit that aglessness is strickly an Aes Sedia quallity!

Jiana: 2005-03-09

Since I so rarely cite quotes (I won't make excuses, I'll just admit I'm lazy), I couldn't help but add one more thing, in reference to whether or not damane are considered animals by the Seanchan. I ran across this re-reading book 4.

from TSR, Revelations in Tanchico (paperback pg. 839)

{Elayne speaking} "Egeanin, I think you are lying. I've not met may Seanchan before, and never for more than a few minutes, but I know someone who has. Seanchan don't even hate women who channel. They think they are animals. You'd not take it so easily if you knew, or even believed."

Jiana: 2005-03-09

Oh yes, and one more thing, regarding the ageless look. And this time I don't have quotes (darn it). IIRC, in the AoL, the Oath Rod was actually called a Binder, and was used for people who committed serious crimes. (I believe it was Graendal who was ruminating about this). It was mentioned that the Forsaken found it surprising that the Aes Sedai of present day subject themselves willingly to the use of the Binder, because its use seriously shortens the life of the person bound. Of course another effect of its use is the ageless face. The two are connected. The Kin and the Wise Ones live a hell of a lot longer than Aes Sedai do. The only other ter'angreal that we have seen mention of that has the potential to do the same thing is the binding chair, but then again, we don't even know what purpose the chair was used for. It could be the same, but it could also be something completely different. Why have a whole chair to Bind someone when a smaller, more easily handled rod would essentially have the same effect? I would also like to point out, that we are on our way to book eleven. If we were going to see some other ter'angreal unearthed that also causes agelessness, don't you think we would have seen it by now? Seems to me a discovery like that would need a great deal of study, discussion, and description on RJ's part. Frankly, with everything else going on, and the Last Battle coming, IMO there is no time for the discovery of something else that causes agelessness. I know I know, "that doesn't mean they aren't out there," but really, the chances of that are very small.

maharbry: 2005-03-10

Correct me if Im wrong, but the Seanchan do not know that to be der'sul'dam is to have the ability but not the spark. If Tuon manifested her spark late (after age of damane testing but before she did the sul'dam testing) she would have been able to utilize the a'dam on account of the spark (we see the girls can do it when they collar moggy). Not only would this answer the question of her slowing; it would ,at the same time, provide an explanation for her training damane.

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-10

I'll say it again, although it is splitting hairs, Nynaeve healed a sister of stilling only partially. Flinn did it all the way. Therefore, complete healing of severed women was still impossible when he did it.

Agelessness is from the Oath Rod or binder, or whatever you want to name it. When sisters are stilled, hey lose the agelessness, along with the oaths. If you need more examples than Suian and Leane, look at the Black sister that was stilled in TDR. She lost the agelessness, and could talk about DF schemes. Just on a side note, this could have disasterous effects because of the stilled sisters that swore to Rand. They are not held to their oaths.

: 2005-03-10

Yaga, I see your point about the reader's definition of impossible. But what about the fact that Nynaeve only healed Logain "part way". As of that point, complete Healing of severing was impossible. Flinn proved that it was not impossible.

But all of this is really, really getting out of hand. I will agree that there is no concrete evidence that Tuon can learn to channel. But you must admit that the circumstantial evidence suggesting it is strong. Not only does she talk about training damane, but there is also the irony of Mat marrying a women who can channel.

To me, it seems that your and GLotD's objections are stretching credulity. It's like your just saying, "Well, it could mean _this_, it doesn't have to mean she can channel." Well, of course it could mean that. But the weight of the evidence suggests that she can channel.

I'm not sure what your motive is for trying to debunk the theory. Is there another theory that depends on the premise that Tuon is not a latent channeler?

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-11

"Name another ter'angreal that every single Aes Sedai has come in contact with."

Let me spell out my position for you. All Aes Sedai attain the agelessness as a side effect of swearing three oaths on the Oath Rod. But there is nothing to say that another ter'angreal does not exist that can cause the same effect. Further to this, it would appear that all binders are capable of causing the effect. If, for example, a WO swore three oaths on the binder Sammael gave to Sevanna, then after a time, that WO would attain agelessness. Would she be an Aes Sedai? No. Would she look like one? Yes. Would people assme she was Aes Sedai(once she had gained the ageless look)? Yes.

"So, tell me Yaga Shura, with all the knowledge you flout, what other ter'angreal is there that all Aes Sedai come in contact with, yet no other culture of female channelers do?"

Of course, there isn't one. I have NEVER questioned the fact that AES SEDAI agelessness is caused by the Oath Rod. All I am saying is that agelessness could be caused IN A WOMAN WHO IS NOT AES SEDAI by another means.

"I guess the Catholic church needs to bone up on these books, huh?"

Yep, all except those Catholics who live their lives by ji'e'toh. Which is the essential difference, of course.

"Couladin said he went to Rhuidean and the Aiel would've believed him had Rand not truely gone"

The WO's and clan chiefs would not have. What the outcome of that situation would have been, i can't say, but I should imagine that it would have been similar to what did happen, except with greater numbers supporting Couladin.

"No, the real Dragon has the Prophecies to proclaim him"

And yet there are always men willing to support he would call himself the Dragon Reborn.(Not a quotation, but a fairly accurate papraphrase).

"Wrong"

Shall I just say once again that there is the potential for them to exist, and leave aside the issue of wether or not they actually do

"This is really becomeing a dead horse!"

Yes, primarily because you all refuse to actually read and consider what I am writing. We know how agelessness is caused (3 oaths sworn on a binder), and we know that multiple binders exist. What else do I need to say?

"By the way I'm holding my breath until I turn blue or until you admit that aglessness is strickly an Aes Sedia quallity! "

You have fun with that, clarkkd, because the possibility exists for other women to attain agelessness. And I will not say otherwise because to do so would be a false assertion.

"The only other ter'angreal that we have seen mention of that has the potential to do the same thing is the binding chair"

And the rod held by Sevanna

"If we were going to see some other ter'angreal unearthed that also causes agelessness, don't you think we would have seen it by now?"

And we have[see above]

"IMO there is no time for the discovery of something else that causes agelessness"

My point at the heart of all of this was not that the ageless effect would appear on women not Aes Sedai, just that the potential exists for the situation to arise within the world of the WoT.

The original connection was this: Tuon states that she trains damane is instantly equated to Tuon states that she uses an a'dam. But, this is not necessarily true. In the same way That woman appears ageless is instantly equated to That woman is Aes Sedai. However, I have been attempting to show that the ageless look could in theory be attained by a woman who could channel who was not Aes Sedai.

Callandor: what do you call the "obedience thing" if not training?(and yes, this will appear at the end of every post until you answer me)

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-11

Well, it's been a wonderful sidetrack, but Jiana summed it up nicely, so let's get back to my disproving Callandor's nitpicks.

Fact: Seanchan believe damane are animals. This has been proven through several quotes now.

Fact: Tuon is good at training animals and people: horses, damane, property and sul'dam.

Fact: Tuon has never been shown using an a'dam.

Fact: a woman who cannot use an a'dam being able to train damane better than professional sul'dam is a case of a young person (also a major character) doing a task thought impossible for a long time. A typical RJ character.

Tuon's regards people, animals, and even damane as worthy of her attention and care. There is ample evidence of this.

You obviously believe that Tuon not using an a'dam is impossible. Your argument that Tuon couldn't possibly train damane without an a'dam is undermined by your own assertion "Wow, a young person doing something seemingly impossible....

Gee, where ~haven't~ we seen that before?"

As there is ample evidence of young people's precociousness in these stories, one can easily imagine Tuon doing the same.

clarkkd: 2005-03-11

This is supposed to be about whether or not Toun can channel, but I'll take the bait anyway!

Nyneve healed Logain all the way

Flinn healed the sister all the way

Nyneve partially healed Suin and Leane

Therfore if Flinn where to try and heal a man: The man would only be half healed!

RJ meant this on purpose! Men heal women; women heal men.

anything else is only half of what should be.

Think about it!

Women who hate male chanelers now have a perfect reason to keep them around.

Callandor: 2005-03-11

**Correct me if Im wrong, but the Seanchan do not know that to be der'sul'dam is to have the ability but not the spark. If Tuon manifested her spark late (after age of damane testing but before she did the sul'dam testing) she would have been able to utilize the a'dam on account of the spark (we see the girls can do it when they collar moggy). Not only would this answer the question of her slowing; it would ,at the same time, provide an explanation for her training damane.**

Only a few Seanchan know that sul'dam, and by extension der'sul'dam, can channel. IIRC, it's down to:

1. Suroth

2. Egeanin

3. Seta

4. Renna

5. Bethamin

6. Alwhin

All knew since at least TSR for sure, that sul'dam could channel. Now, as of CoT, we can add (generally):

1. Egwene

2. Nyneave

3. Elayne

4. Min (I think)

5. Mat

6. Julian

7. Domon

8. Teslyn

9. Selucia

10. Tuon

11. Luca

Now there could easily be others, but I just am going off memory here. But, as you can plainly see, it's a very important secret known to extremely few Seanchan.

However, why does everyone think that Tuon is slowing? She doesn't have to be a wilder that's using the a'dam; she is much more likely to be a learner, instead of an active channeler. Why she looks young can be explained from a few factors:

1. She's really short and thin.

2. As Yaga said, she's bald and can be a bit jarring for telling ages.

3. She can just be one of those people that looks young ;)

Plus, she'd have to have sparked around age 16 or so to slow slightly in the years until now, and not look "too" young then.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-11

"But what about the fact that Nynaeve only healed Logain "part way". As of that point, complete Healing of severing was impossible. Flinn proved that it was not impossible."

Nynaeve only partially healed Siuan and Leane. She healed Logain fully. Just pointing that out, although the point you made remains to be addressed.

The issue with healing severing was that it was suppossedly totally impossible, and Nynaeve proved that it could be healed, and in one case, healed perfectly. The reason why Nynaeve failed to heal Leane and Siuan fully is not the issue here. Please don't make it the issue.

"But you must admit that the circumstantial evidence suggesting it is strong."

Yes, it is, but that does not make it right, purely because all of the evidence is circumstantial. There is no hard proof whatsoever.

"there is also the irony of Mat marrying a women who can channel"

I've been trying to ignore this most flippant of points, but I fear that is no longer an option. The irony of Mat marrying a woman who can channel hardly seems the kind of reason a writer like RJ would choose for making Tuon capable of channeling.

"I'm not sure what your motive is for trying to debunk the theory"

Because i believe in the theory, and will continue to believe, and therefore to defend, until the issue is settled, by text evidence.

SDog: 2005-03-11

The post about "I see your point...blah blah" was me (SDog). Dunno what's going on with these so-called site administrators. ~sigh~

(from a so-called site administrator): i can edit a post, but nothing else. If you forget to sign in when you reply, or if you surf away then surf back, or your browser doesn't like Tam's code, or whatever, then the post goes in anonymous. 'Course, we could just summarily delete anything anonymous. ;) )

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-13

"Therfore if Flinn where to try and heal a man: The man would only be half healed!

RJ meant this on purpose! Men heal women; women heal men. "

That is purely a theory; we do not know enough about that process to express the "men heal women, women heal men" hypothesis as fact.

Frenzy: 2005-03-13

"That is purely a theory; we do not know enough about that process to express the "men heal women, women heal men" hypothesis as fact."

Moridin is Ishamael, Cyndane is Lanfear, Men re-attach women and women re-attach men, and Gravity. What do they all have in common? They're all theories. This isn't Factland, after all.

i'm all for random samples, double-blind tests and statistical analyses... but not in my fantasy novels.

(oh, and Tuon can't channel, she isn't a wilder, she isn't slowing. Anyone who thinks she's slowing needs to go look at the at least 6 years older Nynaeve, then extract their foot from their mouth.)

Callandor: 2005-03-13

**I've been trying to ignore this most flippant of points, but I fear that is no longer an option. The irony of Mat marrying a woman who can channel hardly seems the kind of reason a writer like RJ would choose for making Tuon capable of channeling.**

I highly doubt it was the single reason -- but an added reason for the irony I can totally see. The most likely reason Tuon is a potential channeler, is to allow for a union between Seanchan channelers and Aes Sedai (if one is ever to occur).

Oatman: 2005-03-14

Consider this:

For Tuon to train a Damane she would need to go through a Sul'Dam.

Tuon wouldnt be able to directly control the Damane, she would be effectively be telling the Sul'Dam what to make the Damane do (Damane are animals, I think Sul'Dam would get offended if Tuon ignored them altogether)

By this logic, Tuon would actually be training the Sul'Dam, not the damane. If the tactics work, surely the Sul'Dam would learn from the experience, after all she is connected to the student.

Anyway my point is, if she wears an A'dam, she trains the damane, if she instructs a Sul'Dam on what to do, she trains the Sul'Dam.

clarkkd: 2005-03-14

“Crown of Swords:

Small Sacrifices.

Setalla Anan:

“Trying to keep up the lie does no good, Nynaeve. You look to be, oh, twenty-one give or take a year, so you might be as much as ten years older if you've already reached the slowing...”

The Kin:

Elayne:

“Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of achieving the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more....”

“Crossroads of Twilight:

Matt and Tuon:

“Answer me a question, Tuon,”

“How old are you?” He had heard that she was only a few years younger than he, but looking at her in that sac, of a dress, it seemed impossible.

“My fourteenth true-name day will come in five months. No; you keep your birth names here, don't you. That will be my twentieth naming day....”

Toun is at the age to start slowing, but more than likely has not yet.

Aes Sedia don't achieve agelessness until after at least two years after attaining the shawl some times five or more.

No other society reports that their channelers have the ageless look. The only text that comes close to it is in “The Great Hunt”. When Verin and the Aiel are talking. Paraphrasing but... “You have the look... as if the years do not touch you...”

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-14

"Moridin is Ishamael, Cyndane is Lanfear, Men re-attach women and women re-attach men, and Gravity. What do they all have in common? They're all theories"

Granted, but Cyndane-Lanfear, Moridin-Ishamael and Gravity all have a lot more evidence in support of them than the theory on healing severing.

"Anyway my point is, if she wears an A'dam, she trains the damane, if she instructs a Sul'Dam on what to do, she trains the Sul'Dam."

That assumes that she is training the damane to use the power, or is exercising her. If Tuon is doing some form of training that does not involve motion or the Power, then she would not require the sul'dam.

Frenzy: 2005-03-15

Elayne says, “Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly.” Tuon says, “My fourteenth true-name day will come in five months. No; you keep your birth names here, don't you. That will be my twentieth naming day....”

Do the math. Tuon is 19. She's five months away from the age where slowing BEGINS, let alone is detectable.

Clarkkd says, “Their is no(?) evidence that this almost channeling that the sul'dam do does not cause some of the slowing effects.”

Frenzy says, “Go look at Sharina--the one in the Salidar camp, not the one in Nynaeve's Accepted test--THEN tell me there's evidence that inactive potential to channel can cause slowing.

clarkkd: 2005-03-15

Frenzy says, “Go look at Sharina--the one in the Salidar camp, not the one in Nynaeve's Accepted test--THEN tell me there's evidence that inactive potential to channel can cause slowing.

If you are going to ask me to stick my foot in my mouth at least give me the book, so I can look it up!

Sharina has never had the oppertunity to channel before. Never introduced to it. Never had the desire to before!

If you look at my comment you will see that I was talking about the Sul'dams'. This group of potential learns interact with the power on a daily basis, so much so that the develop an affinity to those around them. Look at the GH! It is referenced that Suldam can see with out the bracelet if an Aes Sedia tries to chanel or not.

There for if the Sul'dam over time develope this affinity it is reasonalbe to assume that they might start to slow!

Why? Because they are inadvertantly learning to channel!

Sharina; she has no contact with anyone that could chanel until she is an old grandma!

lets compare apples to apples and leave the kumkwats out of it!

clarkkd: 2005-03-15

alright I messed up and am posting two in a row :)

Frenzy mentioned that the age of detectableness is around 19.

sorry not true. Look at Moraine probably in the EotW, she is talking about girls in the Two Rivers that have the ability to learn/spark what ever, she mentions that one of the girls is to young to leave home!

Another foggy memory qoute somewhere is that girls as young as 15 can learn.

any way...

clarkkd: 2005-03-15

Some day I learn how to post (I promise)

Yaga qouted and said:

"Moridin is Ishamael, Cyndane is Lanfear, Men re-attach women and women re-attach men, and Gravity. What do they all have in common? They're all theories"

Granted, but Cyndane-Lanfear, Moridin-Ishamael and Gravity all have a lot more evidence in support of them than the theory on healing severing.

"Anyway my point is, if she wears an A'dam, she trains the damane, if she instructs a Sul'Dam on what to do, she trains the Sul'Dam."

That assumes that she is training the damane to use the power, or is exercising her. If Tuon is doing some form of training that does not involve motion or the Power, then she would not require the sul'dam.

Evolution is a theory but has hardly any proof what so ever, so much so that many schools are going to offer the intelligant design as an alternitive.

Theories only work as long as people believe in them.

Oatman: 2005-03-16

"That assumes that she is training the damane to use the power, or is exercising her. If Tuon is doing some form of training that does not involve motion or the Power, then she would not require the sul'dam."

If Tuon is not training them to use the power than WHAT IN GODS NAME IS SHE TRAINING THEM TO DO!

Training a Damane to do somthing other other then channeling would be like training a horse to sing! A way to pass time, and possibly an amusing idea, but completely and utterly pointless and a gigantic waste of time.

Damane are viewed as animals with one purpose, to further the glory of the Seanchan empire via channeling.

Aiel Finn: 2005-03-16

Remember, she said that _most_ start to slow between 20 and 25. That means that some may wait until 30 or some may start at 15. It's not a hard an fast, noone can start slowing before 20 or after 25.

Frenzy: 2005-03-16

(Sorry, Clarkkd, I had no way of knowing you had 3 posts in a row, else I would've combined them for you.)

Clarkkd says, “If you are going to ask me to stick my foot in my mouth at least give me the book, so I can look it up!”

My bad. I assumed you read PoD. Here you go: Path of Daggers Chapter 30 - Beginnings: Some might cause minor problems, and one, a grandmother named Sharina with a potential above even that of Nynaeve, certainly had everyone startled, .... The **gray-haired** woman obeyed every rule and showed every proper respect, ...

Crossroads of Twilight CHAPTER: 17 – Secrets: Well, Sharina was not exactly hovering, just watching calmly, and perhaps it should not have been a surprise to find her there. A dignified, **gray-haired grandmother** with a tight bun on the back of her head, ... Tiana somehow looked young despite her ageless face, particularly alongside the taller novice's **creased cheeks and broad hips.**

No slowing in this potential channeler.

Clarkkd says, “There for if the Sul'dam over time develope this affinity it is reasonalbe to assume that they might start to slow!

Why? Because they are inadvertantly learning to channel!”

But they ~never~ actually channel the One Power themselves. And what causes slowing? Channeling the One Power.

The Dragon Reborn Chapter 3 – News from the Plain: She was a slender, dark-haired woman no taller than his shoulder, and pretty, with the ageless quality of all Aes Sedai who had worked with the One Power for a time. He could not put any age at all to her, with her face too smooth for many years and her dark eyes too wise for youth.

The Shadow Rising Chapter 49 – Cold Rocks Hold: Amys studied him, those clear blue eyes as sharp as an Aes Sedai's. But then, she could channel; her face merely looked younger than it should, not ageless, but maybe she was as much Aes Sedai as an Aes Sedai.

Clarkkd says, “Frenzy mentioned that the age of detectableness is around 19.”

Nope. I said that if you're going to quote the books showing that slowing starts between 20 and 25, you might want to make sure that the person you think is slowing has actually reached that age bracket. Tuon's 19, so by your own quote she can't have started slowing yet. Even if she had been channeling since she was 15.

Clarkkd says, “Evolution is a theory but has hardly any proof what so ever, so much so that many schools are going to offer the intelligant design as an alternitive.”

The only thing that proves is that groundless, unsubstantiated flights of fancy cloaked in the forms of science can force their way into legitimate discussions. You can pull whatever drivel you want out of your hind end, pile enough excrement up around it to support it, and you'll force some moron in power to give you the time of day. But at least with our WoT theories, we know we're practicing sophistry and we're not trying to convert the youth and subvert the Scientific Method using debate tactics. But that's an entirely different debate. ;)

Callandor: 2005-03-16

**Sharina has never had the oppertunity to channel before. Never introduced to it. Never had the desire to before!**

That's exactly the point. Sharina and Damer Flinn did not touch the Source until they were elderly -- because they are learners. All Sul'dam are learners (yes, including Tuon). They have not touched the Source yet, but they are quite close to doing it.

**It is referenced that Suldam can see with out the bracelet if an Aes Sedia tries to chanel or not.**

Please quote it.

**There for if the Sul'dam over time develope this affinity it is reasonalbe to assume that they might start to slow!

Why? Because they are inadvertantly learning to channel!**

No they are not. They are getting extremely close to touching the Source, but they do not channel.

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin

*"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. ~It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over.~* I have never sensed anything like it before. Well. At least they don't try to attack us with their fists anymore. I think I put them straight on that, at least!" The woman in brown flashed a sullen, angry glare at her, but jerked her eyes away from Alise's firm gaze, her mouth twisting in a sickly grimace. When Alise set somebody straight, they were set very straight indeed. Her hands continued to shift along the tabletop.**

**Frenzy mentioned that the age of detectableness is around 19.**

Frenzy is talking about when slowing starts -- not when it's detectable for channeling.

**Remember, she said that _most_ start to slow between 20 and 25. That means that some may wait until 30 or some may start at 15. It's not a hard an fast, noone can start slowing before 20 or after 25.**

No, it's between 20 and 25 for those who start channeling before then. Others, like Sharina and Flinn, who learn to channel late in life start to slow later on in life of course. But 20 and 25 is the age range for slowing, and "most" is not used to describe it. It's explicitly stated "Somwhere between 20 and 25 we begin aging more slowly."

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-16

"There for if the Sul'dam over time develope this affinity it is reasonalbe to assume that they might start to slow"

I disagree. Slowing is caused by touching the source; the ability to see the weaves is not related to that. There does not have to be any correlation between the two things

"If Tuon is not training them to use the power than WHAT IN GODS NAME IS SHE TRAINING THEM TO DO!"

This again? Fine, if i have to. The most likely thing for her to be training the damane to do is to be obedient. What use is a damane that dies not do what she is told, when she is told? No use at all. Damane have to do exactly as instructed, otherwise they are useless as weapons. IMO that is the training that Tuon is giving the damane. Various quotations are given above that support this position, mostly taken from TGH. You want 'em, you go find 'em. Although, if you can come up with another word for the "obedience thing" that isn't just a synonym for 'to train', I think Callandor would be grateful :b

"Damane are viewed as animals with one purpose, to further the glory of the Seanchan empire via channeling"

One purpose, but a multi-faceted one. Would anybody seriously suggest that the only training a modern soldier IRL needs is how to shoot a gun? That is the equivalent of what you are saying.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-16

Oatman, YOU cannot channel, yet you have an understanding of how it works based on what you've read or in Tuon's case, been told. Are you telling me that you couldn't instruct a damane to try different things with the power? To find a way to extinguish a fire using only earth? Or only Air? Or only Spirit? Wouldn't that constitute training?

All the a'dam does is give the sul'dam a big ol' stick to hit the damane with. It forces obedience, it does not make the sul'dam a good teacher!

And clarkdd, thank you for throwing an evolutionary debate in here. Now this is guaranteed to make the #1 theory.

Bail Fyre: 2005-03-17

**Evolution is a theory but has hardly any proof what so ever, so much so that many schools are going to offer the intelligant design as an alternitive.**

Evolution hardly has any proof? Just look at the problems we have with bacteria becoming immune to antibiotics. They evolve! Evolution is fact; we see it in plants and animals every day. It is only considered a theory with regards to very large periods of time and whether or not it is the only mechanism driving change in the progression of life. What this has to do with the WOT, however, I do not know.

Zaela Sedai: 2005-03-18

Lets not start a debate on evolution, this thread is long enough on its own;)

I think the sul'dam are feeling almost the same thing as one would in a link. They come iin contact with the power in some way shape or form, otherwise they would not be able to detect the flows of other channelling. No women who is a learner can do that unless they have been working with the power. If they could don't you think the hoard of novices that the SAS have would've said something? POint being that since the sul'dam can see flows and feel channelling shows that they have had contact with the power and have "used" it so to speak, whether they are able to channel on their own or not. All this being said, it would only be normal that they would have some type of slowing effect from the Power, not nearly as much as damane or AS, or even Aiel. (though maybe not so far away since the Aiel channel as little as possible)

Topaz Ashaman: 2005-03-18

I'm not sure I understand the seanchan chain of command, is Tuon in line for the Crystal Throne?

Stilicho: 2005-03-18

Just to help out the GLOTD in his quest: hey Bail Fyre- you described adaptation, not evolution. The theory of evolution is SPECIFICALLY focused on LONG periods of time and involves the theoretical aspects you admit are controversial (going WAY beyond adaptation). Now, with that said, OF COURSE Tuon can LEARN to channel. Geesh! Come on people, it couldn't be more obvious unless RJ finally answers that "question" next week.

Callandor: 2005-03-18

**One purpose, but a multi-faceted one. Would anybody seriously suggest that the only training a modern soldier IRL needs is how to shoot a gun? That is the equivalent of what you are saying.**

Good analogy -- to take your view on it, Tuon is apparently doing everything but teaching the soldier how to use the gun, and is still a drill sergeant.

**Oatman, YOU cannot channel, yet you have an understanding of how it works based on what you've read or in Tuon's case, been told. Are you telling me that you couldn't instruct a damane to try different things with the power? To find a way to extinguish a fire using only earth? Or only Air? Or only Spirit? Wouldn't that constitute training?**

How do we have an understanding of channeling, GLotD? By seeing what actual channelers do and have done. How is Tuon supposed to do this? Tell her? Please. Yes, describe her the weave of even Healing or Fire or Lightning, and have her train someone else in how to do it.

**It forces obedience, it does not make the sul'dam a good teacher!**

So, Tuon is a crappy sul'dam apparently? Or why did you even put this in here.

clarkkd: 2005-03-18

Frenzy start quote

(Sorry, Clarkkd, I had no way of knowing you had 3 posts in a row, else I would've combined them for you.)

My bad. I assumed you read PoD. Here you go: Path of Daggers Chapter 30 - Beginnings: Some might cause minor problems, and one, a grandmother named Sharina with a potential above even that of Nynaeve, certainly had everyone startled, .... The **gray-haired** woman obeyed every rule and showed every proper respect, ...

Clarkkd says, “Frenzy mentioned that the age of detectableness is around 19.”

Nope. I said that if you're going to quote the books showing that slowing starts between 20 and 25, you might want to make sure that the person you think is slowing has actually reached that age bracket. Tuon's 19, so by your own quote she can't have started slowing yet. Even if she had been channeling since she was 15.

Clarkkd says, “Evolution is a theory but has hardly any proof what so ever, so much so that many schools are going to offer the intelligant design as an alternitive.”

But they ~never~ actually channel the One Power themselves. And what causes slowing? Channeling the One Power.

Frenzy end quote:

Clarkkd responds

I have read all the books. I just can't remember specific pages and chapters with out help :)

Elyane says (I cut this from my own quote)

Any woman who can channel does it. [Slows]

Sharina will not start to slow until she actively channels for about 4 to 5 years, at this point she will no longer age as she did. IF she would have started channeling at the appropriate age of say 19 then I would assume (and we know what assuming does!) that she would still look 30ish.

I did quote the Elyane reference for 20 to 25! I also quoted how old Toun is! She is 5 mos. from being 20! Look at what Elyane says again (loosely paraphrased) “around 20 to 25, and it depends on how strong you are!” The stronger you are able to channel the more effects of slowing will appear. If we say that Toun can channel, and that she is slowing we then can say she will be a fairly powerful Channeler.

The sul'dam does every thing but weave the flows themselves. They see the aura around other active channelers, they can tell the flows from one another, they even know with out the bracelet if a channel has even tried to accomplish something with the power. Which is all part of channeling, they just don't weave the flows!

If you make cookies but leave out the baking soda, you still get cookies they just taste terrible!

The best part of any debate is to talk above the opponents head! I have no idea what you meant Frenzy(:))

Theories are ideas that we have, we take the initial idea find facts (see my theory on how I view facts), that support our theory, at this point it is accepted. It stays this way until it is disproven.

Callandor quoted:

**It is referenced that Suldam can see with out the bracelet if an Aes Sedia tries to chanel or not.**

Please quote it.

Callandor end quote:

Clarkkd responds.

EARG! The GH Damane P483.

“The blue-eyed sul'dam with the empty leash growled, “This one could do without her tongue already, Renna.”

We later find that Alwhin is this blue-eyed girl. And then we see.

“...Alwhin said, “She never even tried.”

And

Renna shook her head almost sadly. “When one has been a sul'dam long enough,” she told Egwene, “one learns to tell many things about damane even without the bracelet, but with the bracelet one can always tell whether a damane has tried t o channel. You must never lie to me, or to any sul'dam, not even by a hair.”

Bail Fyre start quote:

Re: Tuon cannot channel

**Evolution is a theory but has hardly any proof what so ever, so much so that many schools are going to offer the intelligant design as an alternitive.**

Evolution hardly has any proof? Just look at the problems we have with bacteria becoming immune to antibiotics. They evolve! Evolution is fact; we see it in plants and animals every day. It is only considered a theory with regards to very large periods of time and whether or not it is the only mechanism driving change in the progression of life. What this has to do

Bail Fyre end quote:

While this has nothing to do with WOT, it does have to do with how people will fight for a theory! Whether or not there is proof for or against it!

By the by, you're talking adaptation not evolution. But again this is a difference of opinion and should not take away from the debate of Toun can or can not channel!

Callandor: 2005-03-18

**I did quote the Elyane reference for 20 to 25! I also quoted how old Toun is! She is 5 mos. from being 20! Look at what Elyane says again (loosely paraphrased) “around 20 to 25, and it depends on how strong you are!” The stronger you are able to channel the more effects of slowing will appear. If we say that Toun can channel, and that she is slowing we then can say she will be a fairly powerful Channeler.**

You're making lots of assumptions that are incorrect by not quoting.

**TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 24 - The Kin

"Elin Warrel was past forty? But...! "What are you saying, Elayne?" No one was close enough to listen, and no one seemed to be giving them a second glance except the still hopeful seamstress, but Elayne lowered her voice to a whisper.

"We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of achieving the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more. Think. You know any sister with gray hair is old, even if you aren't supposed to mention it. So if Reanne slowed, and she must have, how old is she?"**

1. The age range of slowing is not moveable. It's between 20 and 25. It's not 15 and 20, nor 25 and 30 (that's for men), nor 70 and 75. It's 20 and 25.

2. Tuon is not 20 or older. Therefore, she has not slowed. Period.

3. Any channeler slows -- this is because they must first ~channel~ to begin slowing. Evident by sul'dam, Flinn, and Sharina.

4. The rate of slowing is variable, and dependent on how strong a person is. The stronger they are, the more they slow. Morgase slows; it's how she is still ravishing at her age (also good genes most likely). However, the time when a person slows, ~never~ changes.

**The sul'dam does every thing but weave the flows themselves. They see the aura around other active channelers, they can tell the flows from one another, they even know with out the bracelet if a channel has even tried to accomplish something with the power. Which is all part of channeling, they just don't weave the flows!**

But, and this is the key part, -- THEY DO NOT CHANNEL. Hence, they do not slow.

**Renna shook her head almost sadly. “When one has been a sul'dam long enough,” she told Egwene, “one learns to tell many things about damane even without the bracelet, but with the bracelet one can always tell whether a damane has tried t o channel. You must never lie to me, or to any sul'dam, not even by a hair.”**

Where is it stated that they can see the flows without the bracelet? As far as I see, it only states that they can tell when you are lying to them -- something anyone can do.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-18

"Just to help out the GLOTD in his quest: hey Bail Fyre- you described adaptation, not evolution. The theory of evolution is SPECIFICALLY focused on LONG periods of time and involves the theoretical aspects you admit are controversial (going WAY beyond adaptation)."

Adaptation is essential to evolution. Those organisms that are very complex e.g. birds, take a long time to evolve. Simple organisms, like bacteria, do not.

"Good analogy -- to take your view on it, Tuon is apparently doing everything but teaching the soldier how to use the gun, and is still a drill sergeant."

Yes. Not every drill sergeant will train all soldiers to do everything. That does not mean he is not a drill sergeant.

"By seeing what actual channelers do and have done. How is Tuon supposed to do this? Tell her? Please. Yes, describe her the weave of even Healing or Fire or Lightning, and have her train someone else in how to do it. "

What we are reading is essentially a story that conveys details of the Power as a consequence of having channellers as important characters with regular POV's. It is not an anotated manual on how to use the One Power.(Note that I'm not saying that Tuon has one of these, just that it would allow her to have a much more detailed understanding of the way saidar is used than we have)

"So, Tuon is a crappy sul'dam apparently?"

Haven't you missed the entire point of this theory, Callandor.

"Which is all part of channeling, they just don't weave the flows!"

Yes, but that is the essential part of the process that causes slowing.

Oatman: 2005-03-19

First off, the gun thing really isnt a good analogy. A gun has one purpose, to kill, whilst the power can be used to kill, protect, heal, constrain, and many other things. Second, the Damane are'nt the soldier, they are the gun in the hands of the Sul'Dam, many quotes already in the thread which show Damane are not considered people at all.

How could Tuon possibly teach obedience better then a Sul'Dam?

Firstly the blood dont do the punishing themselves,

"Turak's expression never changed, but the man with the braid cut Domon pff with a snapped, "Unshaven dog! You speak of giving the High Lord what Captain Egeaninhas already given. You bargain, as if the High Lord were a - a merchant! You will be flayed alive over nine days, dog, and -" The barest motion of Turaks finger silenced him."

Second, she would again need to go through a Sul'Dam to do this. The reason she was wearing the veil was because she shamed herself by ordering a Sul'Dam physically beaten.

Third, I doubt she would be able to improve on the Sul'Dams method of teaching obedience, which is basically do as I say or endure excrutiating pain until you do do it.

GLotD, are you trying to tell me a 19 year old who has no experience with the power, and little understanding of how it works(face it, if you cant channel you cant have more than the most basic understanding of it) would be better at discovering different ways to do a task then an experienced Sul'Dam or Damane? Picture this

Tuon - "Get rid of that fire by drawing the heat into the ground"

Damane/Sul'Dam - "But thats not how we do it"

Tuon - "Do it, because I think it will work better"

(Damane spontaniosly combusts)

Tuon - "Whoops...., get another damane and try it again, I wanna make sure...."

It's just not gonna happen.

snakes-n-foxes: 2005-03-19

Two comments :

1. Tuon trained an ex Aes Sedai who had given up on living. No amount of pain by the Suldam could move her, no amount of pain over a long long period of time (and when you're in excruiating pain, even a short time is a long time).

Training the Aes Sedai was done purely with horse training skills.

2. Evolution. There is proof of micro evolution, this is when one species changes into another species - of the same family (ie a bird becoming another species of bird, as was proven with some birds from south america that became stranded on a far island, cant remember the name).

However, there is no evidence whatsoever of macro-evolution, that is a bird becoming a fish or the likes. The is an argument for this, but no proof. As evolutionists can't prove that it happens, their belief in the theory is as much based on faith as creationism is.

Tamyrlin: 2005-03-19

This is in a reference to a request by Callandor regarding Sul'dam being able to see weaves without an a'dam. I am not sure what this has to do with the theory about Tuon, but I do believe some sul'dam, after a long enough exposure to the a'dam which slowly trains them to utilize the one power, while a block exists preventing them from doing so...

TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 20 - Questions of Treason

"Not simply horror at seeing two sul'dam revealed as marath'damane, but her own sudden personal terror. Often she thought she could almost see damane's weaves, and she could always sense a damane's presence and know how strong she was. Many sul'dam could; everyone knew it came from long experience at handling the a'dam...Did she almost see the weaves, or did she really see? Sometimes she thought she felt the channeling, too.


This doesn't prove conclusively that sul'dam can see weaves without holding the a'dam, but it does prove, in my opinion, that sul'dam can sense a damane's presence and strength without the a'dam.


Now what was this about again?

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-19

"How could Tuon possibly teach obedience better then a Sul'Dam?"

Well, firstly, different techniques will have different levels of success with different people. We cannot forget that that is what we are dealing with: individuals. Tuon may not be better than some sul'dam, but she has to be better than others with certain damane.

And why would she have to be better anyway? She is the Daughter of the Nine Moons, heir to the Crystal Throne. Who, short of her mother, can stop her from training damane by whatever methods she chooses?

clarkkd: 2005-03-19

From Callandor:

You're making lots of assumptions that are incorrect by not quoting.

Clarkkd responds with a quote of his from an earlier post:

“Crown of Swords: Small Sacrifices.

Setalla Anan: “Trying to keep up the lie does no good, Nynaeve. You look to be, oh, twenty-one give or take a year, so you might be as much as ten years older if you've already reached the slowing...”

The Kin:

Elayne: “Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of achieving the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more....”

“Crossroads of Twilight:

Matt and Tuon: “Answer me a question, Tuon,”

“How old are you?” He had heard that she was only a few years younger than he, but looking at her in that sac, of a dress, it seemed impossible.

“My fourteenth true-name day will come in five months. No; you keep your birth names here, don't you. That will be my twentieth naming day....”

The GH Damane P483.

“The blue-eyed sul'dam with the empty leash growled, “This one could do without her tongue already, Renna.”

We later find that Alwhin is this blue-eyed girl. And then we see.

“...Alwhin said, “She never even tried.”

And

"Renna shook her head almost sadly. “When one has been a sul'dam long enough,” she told Egwene, “one learns to tell many things about damane even without the bracelet, but with the bracelet one can always tell whether a damane has tried t o channel. You must never lie to me, or to any sul'dam, not even by a hair.”

.......................................

Callandor, it is not my assumptions that are wrong (bare with it) it is my comments that are taken out of their context that gets screwed up!

I quoted it my self (I'm such a big boy!) That Tuon is 19, I quoted that somewhere between 20 and 25 slowing starts taking effect and how much a channeler slows depends upon their strength.

I also showed that Alwin the blue-eyed sul'dam did not have a collared damane, but she still knew that Egwene did not try to embrace the source.

Alwin could have just assumed that she did not try, or she knew because Egwene did not have the aura around her.

Callandor your quote from 2005-03-18, highlights that the agelessness is strictly an Aes Sedia phenomenon, seeing as how the girl in question is over 40 years old and still looks 20ish!

Now your points that you made in the same post.

1. that is the average of when most start to slow, it is not the “lock it in stone” range that you wish it to be.

2. she is 19 we agree. But we interpret the above differently, not as you put it wrongly.

3. Which Sul'dam has been shown not to age differently then other channelers?

NOT once has there been a reference as to how long a Sul'dam lives.

4. I agree, historic I know but I agree.

Now then if you would please read all of my quote (it is above) you would see the connection I was trying to make with Alwin. But seeing as how you don't care, I would point out that the Sul'dam that are in custody of the Kin have been shown that they can channel.

Here is what Frenzy said:

Do the math. Tuon is 19. She's five months away from the age where slowing BEGINS, let alone is detectable.

Callandor could you please look at the last 4 words of his statement please! From these words I looked like she was trying to tie in detectableness with the age of 19. Oh and Frenzy is a big girl and can defend herself.

I knew my comment on evolution would be messy so lets agree to drop it okay?

And just because no other reason. Pick 10 numbers from 1 to 100 at random, right them in numerical order, cut the list in half, average the first 5, and the last 5, use this as your point spread. And fill in the following for me: “Somewhere between [] and [] we begin to slow...” and because anyone could cheat the system(randomly pick the same # 10 times)...

67,34,29,89,12,3,55,32,13,9

3,9,12,13,29,32,34,55,67,89

First half:3,9,12,13,29=69/5=13.8 or 14

Second:32,34,55,67,89=277/5=55.4 or 55

Somewhere between [14] and [55] we begin to slow... WOW?

As for Sharina she will not have any visible signs of slowing, yet her life is going to be prolonged.

Toun has had access to the adam, she uses it to train her damane, she directs their flows, yada yada....

Callandor: 2005-03-19

**Yes. Not every drill sergeant will train all soldiers to do everything. That does not mean he is not a drill sergeant.**

Right. Drill instructors will do everything, except what their job is -- to make killers.

**Haven't you missed the entire point of this theory, Callandor.**

As far as I know, your idea is that Tuon "trained" an Aes Sedai and other damane in how to be damane, effectively, and you propose she did this without using the a'dam.

GLotD said that the a'dam is simply the tool that forces the obedience, and that the sul'dam is not a good teacher because she uses the a'dam. I questioned why this was even put in, since I don't think anyone ever mentioned anything about a sul'dam being a crappy teacher.

The only implication I can draw on, is that Tuon did something with the a'dam (but not using it apparently), and taught the damane something, but in a poor way. Hence, why Tuon is apparently a crappy sul'dam.

Which, again, makes no sense.

Plus, my question was for GLotD. Unless you are him in desquize, don't put words in his mouth, let alone respond for him (unless it's general facts).

**What we are reading is essentially a story that conveys details of the Power as a consequence of having channellers as important characters with regular POV's. It is not an anotated manual on how to use the One Power.(Note that I'm not saying that Tuon has one of these, just that it would allow her to have a much more detailed understanding of the way saidar is used than we have)**

Are you kidding me? Tuon, according to you, cannot channel worth a damn. She is exactly like us. Except, she has no concept of the One Power, because she does not have the ability to see into the minds of real channelers, like we have. It's like taking someone who never read any of the books, and asking them to tell you how to channel a lightning bolt. Simple impossibility.

A non-channeler CANNOT teach a channeler how to channel. They simply have no concept for that, no matter how surrounded they are by people who can channel.

Perrin might be able to tell Wise Ones, "I know there is a way to Heal ~random person~.", but there's no way he can even begin to describe how to do it.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-20

"Right. Drill instructors will do everything, except what their job is -- to make killers."

As I have said before, there is more to the training of damane than just teaching them to blow stuff up. Various things have been lumped under the heading of "obedience" by us, including:

ensuring that the damane will do exactly as she is told

ensuring that the damane will act as soon as she is instructed

familiarising the damane with likely situations

discovering what the strengths of each individual damane are

There are others, but unless you can explain how Tuon could not do these things, or how doing these would not constitute training, there is little point in listing more.

"Perrin might be able to tell Wise Ones, "I know there is a way to Heal ~random person~.", but there's no way he can even begin to describe how to do it."

Take a look at "The Great Hunt", when Egwene is asked to make a tree explode(chapter 42, I think, maybe 43). How detailed was that training?

"Are you kidding me? Tuon, according to you, cannot channel worth a damn. She is exactly like us. Except, she has no concept of the One Power, because she does not have the ability to see into the minds of real channelers, like we have. It's like taking someone who never read any of the books, and asking them to tell you how to channel a lightning bolt. Simple impossibility."

No concept? She's surrounded by the Power in action, and perfectly capable of learning about through questioning others. How could she possibly have no concept?

When we see into the mind of a channeler, all we are seeing is the words somebody has put down on paper. What is stop those same words from being written by somebody inside the WoT universe?

Callandor: 2005-03-20

**Take a look at "The Great Hunt", when Egwene is asked to make a tree explode(chapter 42, I think, maybe 43). How detailed was that training?**

I was wondering when you would bring that up. Now, why is that situation an absolute proof of my position? Because Renna, a latent channeler, is using the a'dam to instruct Egwene.

You propose that a non-channeler, could do the same thing. Do you begin to see where this is ludicrous?

**No concept? She's surrounded by the Power in action, and perfectly capable of learning about through questioning others. How could she possibly have no concept?**

Because she does not channel! She ~knows~ the One Power exists -- whoopdie crap! A moronic farmer from Saldaea or a non-name Sharan knows the One Power exists.

She would have no concept of ~how~ it works. ~How~ it feels. ~How~ to channel. Or ~how~ to teach it.

She -- would -- never -- come -- in contact -- with it.

Why? Because the a'dam would be ~USELESS~ to her. The only link to even begin to teach a damane would be absolutely, and completely, useless to your proposed teacher.

**What is stop those same words from being written by somebody inside the WoT universe?**

Describe for me an apple, without ever seeing one. Or a lion. Or a tiger. Or the sky.

If you think words on a page can allow a non-channeler to teach a damane what to do, why on earth aren't there even ~more~ sul'dam then there are presently (and there already is a heck of a lot). Why on earth haven't we heard of "the sul'dam who could never be complete" or "the sul'dam that always needed assistance" or some other description that would give rise to even a the hint of a sul'dam that would be, in very obvious terms, handicapped in their job?

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-21

Well let me give you an example of how Tuon does it with no a'dam.

Tuon comes upon Lidya, a former Aes Sedai who refuses to eat or obey the sul'dam. We must assume that they have tried using force and pain to convince Lidya to cooperate, right? This has been your argument all along: That sul'dam using an a'dam are required to train the damane.

But in this case they have failed. I have to imagine they've doled out more pain and suffering on Lidya than on any damane in history, because she just will not give in. After all, it's standard procedure, just as we saw them train Egwene.

So I ask you, what did Tuon do with the a'dam to garner not only cooperation from Lidya, but adoration from her?

The only possible way (and highly unlikely) using the power is by Compulsion. But since Tuon cannot channel herself, and Lidya will not allow Tuon to force her to weave anything, no weave for Compulsion could be formed.

Now maybe this Semiranath charcater you believe in could do the Compulsion, but if that's true, then there's really no need for Tuon to use an a'dam is there?

So what we're left with is Tuon convinced Lidya to submit to damanehood without inflicting pain.

Maybe now you're thinking she uses alternating pain and pleasure, like Semirhage did on Cabriana. Like the sul'dam don't know that old trick. But Tuon could be better at it than them. True, true.

But even that won't work unless there's some bond of trust that can be established between Lidya and Tuon. And that does NOT require an a'dam. It requires skill in dealing with people and/or animals. In fact, once there's a bond of trust, a damane can patiently explain to Tuon all the intricacies of channeling and so on.

But there isn't even any need of that. In vast majority, the sul'dam themselves don't see the weaves or know the threads required to weave them. If they understood channeling too well, they might be suspected as channelers as well. The damane don't have to explain it to them, the sul'dam don't want to know about it, so why would Tuon need to know anything about it to train them?

Egwene was just told to blow stuff up. She was given blind ore-deteection tests that any Pepsi commercial can tell you how to do. What special skill is it that requires Tuon to train a damane if the damane is content to do as she asks without being coerced by threat of pain?

Daekyras: 2005-03-21

"Egwene was just told to blow stuff up. She was given blind ore-deteection tests that any Pepsi commercial can tell you how to do."

Egwene's trainers knew she could channel. They would not teach her as you would someone who couldn't channel before.

We have not enough information to see if all damane are just told what to do with no demonstration.

For all we know they are trained with a fully trained Damane to show them the flows etc..

And just a little side note, this ie a website of theories. Not fact. Anyone is free to their opinion and thir interpretation of a passage in the books. This kind of biting and sniping at each other is childish and rude and makes the site a much less inviting place.

ThunderWalker: 2005-03-21

This is a long thread. Getting back to one of the original statements, where Tuon disciplines a damane. It has been a little while since I read this part. So I have two questions.

First, was anyone else present when Tuon had her fortune read? Or was it just her and the damane? The content of the fortune is speculation, but it was something Tuon definitely was upset with. Would she have wanted someone else present when hearing her fortune?

Second, if this is an active Fortelling, does it require use of the One Power? (which would require a sul'dam) If that is the case, her fortune would not have been private, if Tuon could not use the bracelet herself.

If she could use the bracelet, she could command silence from the damane, and noone would now. If she couldn't use the bracelet, then if a sul'dam was present, she would know the fortune as well.

Tuon "ordered her caned because she disliked what she heard". That could have been an order to the sul'dam present at the fortelling. Or it could be that Tuon threw off the a'dam, and ordered a guard to cane her.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-21

"If you think words on a page can allow a non-channeler to teach a damane what to do, why on earth aren't there even ~more~ sul'dam
Because they have no need. Those sul'dam would be utterly superfluous. But who would tell the DotNM not to do something? Who, except her mother who has seemingly no interest in this area, has the authority to stop Tuon doing whatever she likes?

"was wondering when you would bring that up. Now, why is that situation an absolute proof of my position? Because Renna, a latent channeler, is using the a'dam to instruct Egwene.

You propose that a non-channeler, could do the same thing. Do you begin to see where this is ludicrous? "

I see why Tuon would be incapable of doing this unaided. I already conceded that this is almost certain;ly not the type of training Tuon is doing. But there aree other types that you are conveniently ignoring because you cannot disprove them.

SDog: 2005-03-21

I want to go back to the beginning here, because this debate has now gotten bogged down with details. Here's the evidence GLotD presented as evidence that Tuon cannot channel:

1.***"Tuon believes that all damane owners should do what she is doing with damane. That would absolutely not be possible unless they were all sul'dam. Since Tuon knows this cannot be true, it stands to reason that she is not sul'dam either."***

That doesn't stand to reason at all. What stands to reason is that Tuon is one of the few people in Seanchan that can both train damane (as a sul'dam), and own damane (as Blood). She is commenting on how owners of damane should act, and that has nothing to do with sul'dam.

2.***"Lidya had been responsible for her anger last night. No, she had caused it, but Tuon herself was responsible for her own emotions. She had commanded the damane to read her fortune, and she should not have ordered her caned because she disliked what she heard.

No mention of a'dam. Wouldn't a sul'dam use the a'dam for discipline?"***

No, because she is not the sul'dam. She could be, but she isn't. She's the owner of the damane. I would argue that a'dam punishments are used specifically for discipline in the sul'dam-damane relationship. Since Tuon owns the sul'dam in charge of Lidya, but is not that sul'dam, she orders a more traditional punishment.

3.***"Every der'sul'dam gave up on Mylen. Do you believe Tuon is somehow better than lifelong sul'dam at using an a'dam?"***

Yes, sort of like how Nynaeve is a better Healer than lifelong members of the Yellow Ajah. This fits with the them of these books. The current generation of people (the main characters) are all eclipsing their predecessors, elders, and contemporaries. In Tuon's case, she's really, really good at training damane. Since she's of the Blood, and can't logically become a sul'dam because of the rank issue, we have to settle for seeing her actions indirectly.

4.***"Tuon needs no der'sul'dam to train her damane or her sul'dam. That sounds a lot like she needs no a'dam. "

Not, it really doesn't. It sounds like Tuon is such a good "potential" sul'dam, that she doesn't need a supervisor for the sul'dam she owns. She can fulfill the roll of a der'sul'dam herself.

IMO, that's one of the strongest pieces of evidence that she ~can~ learn to channel.

***"In short, we have an unreliable point of view (Mat), and two authoritative points of view (Tuon, the general)that leave certain details ambiguous enough that one could make a strong case that Tuon's ability lies not with the Power, but in sheer force of will, and ability to befriend and command her property."***

That's quite a misleading summary of what you have compiled. You haven't really presented any evidence, at all. Instead, you're basing assumptions off of very specific interpretations of quotes. There may be ambiguous details, indeed. None of that ambiguity, however, can truly be said to provide strong counter-arguments to the circumstantial evidence that Tuon can channel.

Callandor: 2005-03-21

**But in this case they have failed. I have to imagine they've doled out more pain and suffering on Lidya than on any damane in history, because she just will not give in. After all, it's standard procedure, just as we saw them train Egwene.**

They do use other methods then punishing a damane to death.

**So what we're left with is Tuon convinced Lidya to submit to damanehood without inflicting pain.**

Yeah, like they do.

**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 20 - Questions of Treason

She set about her inspection briskly and efficiently, checking that the damane had kept themselves and their individual kennels neat, making a short notation in her neat hand on the top page pinned to the writing board when one had failed to, and she did not dawdle, ~except to give out hard candies to a few who were doing particularly well in the training.~ Most of those she had been complete with greeted her entrance with smiles even as they knelt. Whether from the Empire or from this side of the ocean, they knew she was firm yet fair. Others did not smile. For the most part, the Atha'an Miere damane met her with stony faces as dark as her own, or sullen anger they seemed to believe they were concealing.**

**TITLE: Winter's Heart,CHAPTER: 20 - Questions of Treason

"For two of the damane she made notes that had nothing to do with neatness. Zushi, an Atha'an Miere damane even taller than she herself, was certainly marked for a switching. Her dress was rumpled, her hair uncombed, her bed unmade. But her face was swollen from crying, and no sooner had she knelt than a new set of sobs racked her, tears streaming down her cheeks. The gray dress that had been fitted on her so carefully now hung loosely, and she had not been plump to begin with. Bethamin had named Zushi herself, and she felt a special concern. *Unclipping the steelnibbed pen, she dipped it and wrote a suggestion that Zushi be moved from the Palace to somewhere she could be kept in a double kennel with a damane from the Empire, preferably one experienced in becoming heart-friends with newly collared damane. Sooner or later, that always put an end to tears.***

**ITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 20 - Questions of Treason

Back out in the narrow hallway, Bethamin wrote a strong suggestion that Tessi's training be redoubled, along with her punishments, ~and her rewards be made sporadic,~ so she could never be sure that even perfection would earn so much as a pat on the head. ~It was a harsh method, one she normally avoided, but for some reason it turned even the most recalcitrant marath'damane into a supple damane in a remarkably short time. It also produced the meekest of damane.~ She disliked breaking a damane's spirit, yet Tessi needed to be broken to the a'dam so she could forget the past. She would be happier for it, in the end.**

**But even that won't work unless there's some bond of trust that can be established between Lidya and Tuon. And that does NOT require an a'dam. It requires skill in dealing with people and/or animals. In fact, once there's a bond of trust, a damane can patiently explain to Tuon all the intricacies of channeling and so on.**

Ah, so now, Tuon is a social person, instead of a trainer, and learned the details of channeling from a damane, instead of being taught from a der'sul'dam. You know, if a person in Seanchan won't accept Healing from a damane (even near death), because it's like a dog Healing a person, I wonder how they would view being taught from a damane.

**Egwene was just told to blow stuff up. She was given blind ore-deteection tests that any Pepsi commercial can tell you how to do. What special skill is it that requires Tuon to train a damane if the damane is content to do as she asks without being coerced by threat of pain?**

What's the special skill that stops EVERY other person in Seanchan society, from teaching damane? After all, a sul'dam is an important and respected position that not everyone can be.

Jiana: 2005-03-21

I believe Tuon could channel if taught. I believe Tuon could channel if taught. I believe Tuon could channel if taught. There, now that I have that out of the way...

"No concept? She's surrounded by the Power in action, and perfectly capable of learning about through questioning others. How could she possibly have no concept?"

As we have seen numerous times, royalty and nobility are quite content to let others of "lesser" bloodlines do the legwork. Let's take the High Lady Alteima for example. She has been surrounded by daily chores such as cooking and cleaning all her life, and has the ability to learn about the how of all those things through questioning of the servants that perform the tasks. But she has no concept of how to, say, make a bed, because she needn't soil her hands with it. Tasks like that are for the more common sort of people, to Alteima. (Need I point out the similarity between the Seanchan people and the Tairens for believing that royalty and nobility are a different flesh from the common people?)

Now for Tuon. She would have no real concept of how to use the Power, *whether or not she's a learner, sparker, what have you,* because she's royalty and doesn't have to be bothered with it. There are other, "lesser" people who can deal with it instead of her. She knows the Power exists, probably knows about each of the Five Powers, being educated as she is... But would she be able to tell a damane each of the specific Powers used, how much of each, and how to weave each into Healing? Whether she has the ability to channel or not, I think the answer is no, because either way, she doesn't have the information needed and the training in the Power to explain it.

Oatman: 2005-03-22

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Lidya used to be Black Ajah. She could just be latching on to a power source and hoping to manipulate it.

Asmodean: 2005-03-22

umm..yea..its been awile..haha.. Tuon...definitely a channeler or last least a possible channeler. We all know what Damane Training is...damane have a purpose..a main purpose..to be a weapon..that weapon must be trained..and sure...these "weapons" can be trained..and probably are trained in other aspects..but the most of their training is done with the OP. Tuon would not have stated training damane as a hobby..unless it was training them in the OP..training them to become weapons..to suggest anything else is just to ignore the tib-bits of info we aren't spoda ignore...and IF she can channel..not just have the potential..actively channeling..who's to say our pal semi didn't teach her to mask the weave...semi doesn't really want Tuon to be find out..she prolly has other plans for her..we will soon RAFO...and I recall she was tested for suldam hood..but the results were confidential..correct me if I am wrong..just going by what some foo dun said up top..too lazy to quote and my books are at my bros..but anyway..if this is the case..wouldn't she have wanted to hide the fact that she could be a suldam...the whole demotion and all...shes the heir to the throne..who just so happens to enjoy training damane to be weapons..whether she knows she can channel or not has yet to be stated...but as clever readers..we are left to assume that she can...if U can't see that yet..then perhaps u aren't the "clever readers" RJ was refering to...if that is the case...I'm sorry..read an easier book..haha...J/K..wanted to sound like a jerk and all..naw..we are all entitled to our opinions...and it just so happens to be MY OPINION that the little brat can channel...agree or not...its u who will feel heated and blind when we all find out for sure that she can..hasta luego

: 2005-03-22

Sigh....

SDog, you seem much more coherent to speak with, and don't always answer questions with questions. You also seem able to notice when I am switching back and forth between opposing arguments to make a point. So I'll address your response and direct my questions at you, presuming you are not afraid to commit precise descriptive answers to your response. By the way, it's always good to point the thread back to the original topic. Thanks. Anyone else who wants to answer these, please do so.

1. Caring for damane: Yes, Tuon is commenting on how damane owners should act. In this scene we see her giving orders for food and exercise for her damane. No need of a'dam to be able to do that. So with regards to the care she is giving/ordering, there is nothing to imply that she MUST be able to use an a'dam. Do you agree?

2. Punishment. Fantastic. I'd agree that a'dam are more suitable for sul'dam/damane disputes. Though I think the lazier nobles would just order the sul'dam to use the a'dam to dole out punishments. But that's an aside. In this case, no a'dam was used to discipline Lidya. So in this scene, there is no proof one way or the other that Tuon can use an a'dam. Do you Agree?

3. Upstaging elders: I agree that "The current generation of people (the main characters) are all eclipsing their predecessors, elders, and contemporaries." I submit to you that IF a non-channeler found a way to do something that only channelers could do previously, that would fit in the same category as what you just described. Something like a non-channeler being able to convince a damane to live when she wants to die. I believe your argument applies equally well to your point of view as to mine. Do you agree?

4. Training sul'dam: You said: "She can fulfill the roll of a der'sul'dam herself." I agree. In fact, channeling ability would provide no obvious benefit to training sul'dam. Do you agree?

Argh. I must stop here due to time constraints. Please answer these questions directly and provide rationales. I will move on to your other points shortly. Thanks.

WaterSeeker: 2005-03-22

I've wanted to post to this theory for a while now but never had anything constructive to add to it, until now that is. First I don't understand why this theory even began as it has to be noted that the only people that we have seen who train damane are sul'dam and how Tuon is supposed to train a marath'damane without an a'dam, even by treating it like an animal and using training techniques like she would a horse, just does not seem to fit logically into what we know of this world. Therefore it is my belief that Tuon trains damane just like a sul'dam does, through an adam, and hence that like other sul'dam she has the potential to channel and could learn how to use the One Power. Now for the evidence to back it up.

First is the quote which seems to be the cause of this theory,

“Many had thought it odd when Tuon tested for sul'dam on reaching adulthood,........... Actually becoming a sul'dam was unthinkable, of course, but she found as much enjoyment in training damane as in training horses, and she was as good at one as the other” (Winter's Heart, What the Veil Hides, page 327)

This has become the backbone of the argument that Tuon cannot channel, why? The only reasons that I see is it is mentioned that “Actually becoming sul'dam was unthinkable” and that training damane and training horses are mentioned in the same sentence. As for the second reason it has been shown that damane are seen as little more than animals so it would be a understandable analogy to compare the training of one animal to another even if the training methods differ radically.

As for the first if it was odd for Tuon to be tested for sul'dam then that led me to think maybe it would be odd for any of the Blood (could just be the High Lords/Ladies) to be tested. It is also possible that those of the Blood are prevented from becoming sul'dam (Those that have the spark would be caught eventually) as we have not seen any of the Blood who are, we have also not seen any sul'dam who have been raised to the Blood.

Now for the second quote the one only comes from a few lines above the last and I was really surprised that it was not mentioned yet because it seems to prove that Tuon must have the ability to use the a'dam. It comes from where Tuon is describing her damane.

“......Charral, her hair as grey as her eyes, but still the most agile in her spinning. Sera, with red ribbons in her tightly curled black hair, the strongest, and proud as a sul'dam.......” (Winter's Heart, What the Veil Hides, page 327)

This is Tuon's point of view her description of the damane and their talents with the One Power (it would not fit with the rest of the paragraph if she was talking of cloth spinning or physical strength). These concepts would be almost impossible to explain to someone who could not use an a'dam and even if they were it is most likely that one such person would not use them to describe the way Tuon does so instinctively. We as readers understand these concepts to some degree but would not be able to describe one channeler from another by judging them on their skill at weaving the flows or how strong they are or could become. For Tuon to be able to do this she must be able to use the a'dam

The final part of this reply comes from a quote in Crossroads of Twilight where Egeanin is stabbed and reveals what she knows about the sul'dam. Selucia has a very odd reaction to the revelation.

“Selucia made an angry sound, though, blue eyes blazing, and droped the bundle of cloth from her back as she took a step toward Domon. A quick flash of Tuon's fingers stopped her in her tracks, though it was a quivering halt. Tuon's face was a dark mask, unreadable.” (Crossroads of Twilight, Something Flickers, page 755).

The reactions of both Selucia and Tuon are very odd here, that is if according to what some believe this revelation would have no personal implications. Granted the effects on the empire would be huge and could explain Tuon's reaction but what about Selucia would such a thing provoke her reaction. If however it is believed that Tuon can learn to channel like other sul'dam the scene makes much more sense. Selucia is Tuon's bodyguard and cares for Tuon like a daughter or at least a sister. She would have two obvious emotional reactions both fear and anger. Fear because if true she could not protect Tuon from her fate and anger because to her these allegations could not possibly hold any element of truth and anyone who would commit such slander would have to die. These reactions only make sense when using this view as Selucia would understand the treat posed to Tuon because she uses an a'dam just like a sul'dam. END

TUON CAN LEARN TO CHANNEL

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-22

Hmm, in case it wasn't obvious, that unnamed post above was me, GLotD. Stupid computers.

Before I get back to completing my thoughts from the previous post, I'd like to point out that this is not a theory to prove Tuon can't learn to channel. It is a theory showing how there is no absolute proof Tuon can learn to channel. Go back to the post at the top and see for yourself.

Now...

5. damane vs. sul'dam vs. horses: Tuon has shown she excels at training both her sul'dam, and animals she can't even communicate with, such as horses. She appears to have the skill to get just about any living thing to do what she wants. Do you agree?

6. Training damane: Waterseeker's comment about skill with spinning is irrelevant. Surely Tuon is intelligent enough to see the results of the spinning and decide who has more skill. Nowhere does it explicitly say Tuon instructed damane in the channeling. Do you agree?

7. Reliable points of view: You seem to more or less agree that there is ambiguity on the subject of Tuon being able to learn to channel. As pointed out in each of the six points above, it is never explicitly said that she uses an a'dam or can learn to channel. The only point of view that states that Tuon will learn to channel comes from Mat. I don't see Mat as being particularly aware of channeling intricacies, for as has been pointed out, how could a non-channeler understand?

I hope I'll get some honest and straight answers from some of you.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-23

"Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Lidya used to be Black Ajah. She could just be latching on to a power source and hoping to manipulate it. "

I don't think we know any more about Lidya than that she is a damane, meaning that we do not know if she was Black Ajah or not. She may even have been Seanchan in origin.

Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-24

**"The obedience would be the only thing, but in essence, no. " Is it just me, or does that sound a lot like "OK that's a good point but I can't admit that" Come on, the obedience thing IS training**

Ok, in Bootcamp, going in the Pit is teaching obidence, but how is that training?? The Pit is just a big Sand Pit that makes it harder to do what the DIs tell you to do, IE running in place and pushups. That is not the type of training that Tuon does. Tuon TEACHES the Damane how to CHANNEL.

Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-24

GLOTD,

**4. Training sul'dam: You said: "She can fulfill the roll of a der'sul'dam herself." I agree. In fact, channeling ability would provide no obvious benefit to training sul'dam. Do you agree?**

Ok, now what is a Der'Sul'dam?? Someone who can learn to CHANNEL, and is the most experienced,and most powerful (politically) of of the Sul'Dam.

To be Der'Sul'dam, you have to be a Sul'dam, otherwise your underlings would never listen to you.

SDog: 2005-03-24

I'm happy to give straight answers where I can, GL. I still think you're making mountains out of molehills that don't really exist.

***"1. Caring for damane: Yes, Tuon is commenting on how damane owners should act. In this scene we see her giving orders for food and exercise for her damane. No need of a'dam to be able to do that. So with regards to the care she is giving/ordering, there is nothing to imply that she MUST be able to use an a'dam. Do you agree?"***

Perhaps, but that's not what you were arguing. You were arguing that the passage quoted was somehow proof that Tuon didn't use the a'dam, which isn't implied by the passage at all. Feel free to change your arguments to suit the responses, but don't expect to get away with it unnoticed. ;-)

***"2. Punishment. Fantastic. I'd agree that a'dam are more suitable for sul'dam/damane disputes. Though I think the lazier nobles would just order the sul'dam to use the a'dam to dole out punishments. But that's an aside. In this case, no a'dam was used to discipline Lidya. So in this scene, there is no proof one way or the other that Tuon can use an a'dam. Do you Agree?"***

Yes, so why did you include it?

***"3. Upstaging elders: I agree that "The current generation of people (the main characters) are all eclipsing their predecessors, elders, and contemporaries." I submit to you that IF a non-channeler found a way to do something that only channelers could do previously, that would fit in the same category as what you just described. Something like a non-channeler being able to convince a damane to live when she wants to die. I believe your argument applies equally well to your point of view as to mine. Do you agree?"***

I agree that something like that would fall under the theme I mentioned, yes. Given the other evidence, however, there is no reason to assume Tuon would have that rare ability. That is, the argument itself is not evidence, and there isn't much other positive evidence for that argument.

***"4. Training sul'dam: You said: "She can fulfill the roll of a der'sul'dam herself." I agree. In fact, channeling ability would provide no obvious benefit to training sul'dam. Do you agree?"***

No, I absolutely do not agree. How could you train sul'dam without having the same ability they have? Moreover, a der'sul'dam is not just a "sul'dam trainer". She is the supervisor, leader, staff sergeant, etc. for the sul'dam. She is a sul'dam with elevated rank. If Tuon can act as her own der'sul'dam, it very much stands to reason that she could act as a sul'dam, as well. In other words, she can be taught to channel. Asking a non-sul'dam (or potential sul'dam) to act as der'sul'dam is like asking bird to teach a fish how to swim.

***"5. damane vs. sul'dam vs. horses: Tuon has shown she excels at training both her sul'dam, and animals she can't even communicate with, such as horses. She appears to have the skill to get just about any living thing to do what she wants. Do you agree?"***

6. Training damane: Waterseeker's comment about skill with spinning is irrelevant. Surely Tuon is intelligent enough to see the results of the spinning and decide who has more skill. Nowhere does it explicitly say Tuon instructed damane in the channeling. Do you agree?"***

This goes back to "what is training", which has been hashed out over and over again here. Suffice it to say that I believe a woman must have a sul'dam's abilities in order to effectively train damane. Besides, that Tuon has talent training horses is in no way evidence that she can train damane without an a'dam. Training a horse is just like training a damane, as long as you have an a'dam for the latter.

***"7. Reliable points of view: You seem to more or less agree that there is ambiguity on the subject of Tuon being able to learn to channel. As pointed out in each of the six points above, it is never explicitly said that she uses an a'dam or can learn to channel. The only point of view that states that Tuon will learn to channel comes from Mat. I don't see Mat as being particularly aware of channeling intricacies, for as has been pointed out, how could a non-channeler understand?"***

The only ambiguity, IMO, is that RJ has never explicitly said Tuon can learn to channel, and hasn't yet written a scene showing her using an a'dam. This ambiguity seems to be the crux of your whole theory. I would argue that there is strong evidence from which we can infer that Tuon is a latent channeler. The Creator has never come down from the sky and said, "Rand, you're the Dragon Reborn." We only have other people opinions on the subject. Still, we are 99% sure that's the case, because of the evidence.

The lack of an explicit reference is not a strong argument.

Yaga Shura: 2005-03-24

"Ok, in Bootcamp, going in the Pit is teaching obidence, but how is that training?? The Pit is just a big Sand Pit that makes it harder to do what the DIs tell you to do, IE running in place and pushups. That is not the type of training that Tuon does. Tuon TEACHES the Damane how to CHANNEL."

Firstly, i would say that since we have never seen Tuon perform any active training it is impossible for anyone to definitively say what type of training it is that Tuon does.

As for your mention of the Pit: I believe, based only on my extremely limited knowledge of the Pit, that what would constitute the obedience training would surely be the consequences of not doing as instructed (if this is what the Pit is used for, i.e. if you are sent to the Pit if you fail to follow the DI's instructions, then forgive my ignorance).

Frenzy: 2005-03-24

SDog says:

3.***"Every der'sul'dam gave up on Mylen. Do you believe Tuon is somehow better than lifelong sul'dam at using an a'dam?"***

Yes, sort of like how Nynaeve is a better Healer than lifelong members of the Yellow Ajah.


Nice one, SDog. There's just one problem: Nynaeve is a Wisdom. Wisdoms heal. So the fact that Nynaeve found a different/better way to Heal isn't as far-fetched as, say, High Lord Weiramon being better at it than the Yellows.

Now, if you pointed at Damer Flinn, THEN your arguement might have more than straw legs to stand on.

SDog: 2005-03-25

***"Nice one, SDog. There's just one problem: Nynaeve is a Wisdom. Wisdoms heal. So the fact that Nynaeve found a different/better way to Heal isn't as far-fetched as, say, High Lord Weiramon being better at it than the Yellows.

Now, if you pointed at Damer Flinn, THEN your arguement might have more than straw legs to stand on."***

I wasn't pointing out Nynaeve as something specific. She was one example of how the main characters tem do outdo their predecessors and contemporaries.

Besides, Nynaeve's history as a Wisdom says nothing about Tuon's ability to train damane better than other sul'dam. For that matter, you could argue that her skill with horses gave her the foundation, much like Nynaeve, to outdo the others.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-25

Cool stuff, here we go.

1. I'm glad you do notice. I'm trying to go an inch at a time, to see just where the disbelief starts, and also to show that while the sum of these quotes may seem to show channeling ability, individually, none of them do. In this case you 'perhaps' agree that Tuon's giving instructions in no way implies she can channel. I believe this is a typical example of how she cares for her damane, which obviously requires no a'dam. To probe further, do you see any examples of Tuon caring for damane that would heavily imply she uses an a'dam?

2. Now you know why I included it. To show that another opportunity for RJ to clearly make his point about a'dam use was avoided. So, if I'm counting right, we're 2 for 2 on no proof of channeling ability yet.

3. "the argument itself is not evidence, and there isn't much other positive evidence for that argument." That's a good way to put it. In this case I'm making the point that if someone wants to use the upstaging their elders argument for Tuon's channeling ability. I can use it just as easily for her to not have channeling ability. This line of reasoning proves nothing for either side. But since you think that there is no reason to believe Tuon can deal with damane effectively without channeling ability, I point you to your own quote " For that matter, you could argue that her skill with horses gave her the foundation, much like Nynaeve, to outdo the others."

4. No, I absolutely do not agree. How could you train sul'dam without having the same ability they have? Moreover, a der'sul'dam is not just a "sul'dam trainer". She is the supervisor, leader, staff sergeant, etc. for the sul'dam. She is a sul'dam with elevated rank. If Tuon can act as her own der'sul'dam, it very much stands to reason that she could act as a sul'dam, as well. In other words, she can be taught to channel. Asking a non-sul'dam (or potential sul'dam) to act as der'sul'dam is like asking bird to teach a fish how to swim."

Well said. So it's a matter of experience as a sul'dam is required to command and train sul'dam? I have to point out that Tuon would not be the first person in this series to take on a large task in which she had no previous experience. I like the staff sargeant comparison, but I would use a young officer comparison. Young officers are frequently placed in command of groups of far more experienced enlisted men. They know nothing of combat yet, but are expected to lead men who have already participated in combat. Given that these are property she's commanding, I think this analogy is even more fitting. And if you agree it's a better analogy, you can see I'm getting at the idea that Tuon needn't have had any practice being a sul'dam to act as a der'sul'dam.

5. and 6. To paraphrase you: "Training a horse is just like training a damane, as long as you OWN A SUL'DAM HOLDING an a'dam for the latter." I don't see how ordering a sul'dam to administer sensations via an a'dam while Tuon herself tells the damane what to do fails to qualify as training a damane.

In conclusion, lack of direct admission may not be a STRONG argument, I only give "Tuon can't Channel" a 25% chance of being correct at most. But it is an argument. The closest comparison I can think of is believing a character to be dead when there is no body.

Oatman: 2005-03-27

The reasoning for this theory is ridiculous. Basically because it dosnt say in the exact words "Tuon can use an A'dam" you think she cant.

How about this - Perrin and Mat can channel! Perrin is subconciously using compulsion to make people follow his orders, and all of Mats luck is just him subconciosly channeling Air to make the dice land his way (I mean that is the metaphorical sence as well). Of course, both ideas are total crap, its just common sence. However, you cant prove it wrong because it never simply says "Mat and Perrin cant channel". Believe it or not that has about as much substance as this theory, because the reasoning is the same.

gleeman: 2005-03-29

ok, as far as quotes from the books used in this discussion, nothing has been provided (or at least not expanded upon) but the quote about tuon training horses and damane, however there is another few paragraphs in CoT that should be taken as a supplement that provides even more evidence that Tuon can channel.

Tell me, does anyone remember what was Tuons reaction when Egeanin told Mat sul'dams nasty little secret? Why do you think Tuon would have been so outraged and angry at the statement? could it be that she had the potential to be a sul'dam as well?

Bane Darkwulf: 2005-03-29

**Tell me, does anyone remember what was Tuons reaction when Egeanin told Mat sul'dams nasty little secret? Why do you think Tuon would have been so outraged and angry at the statement? could it be that she had the potential to be a sul'dam as well? **

Of course she has the potential to be a Sul'Dam!! The only reason why she is not is that she is of the Blood. Royalty doesn't stoop below it's station. I think uon has figured out that because A'dam can hold sul'dam, that means they can channel. I also think she might try to get tested, quite possibly offscreen.

Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-03-30

Many of you feel there can be no other reason that Tuon showed shock at Mat's knowledge of sul'dam being able to channel.

What about this: The Seeker cut her off again, twisting her head to speak to the soldiers as if Morsa did not exist. “The woman Morsa is in the custody of the Seekers for Truth. She will be put to the question as soon as we return to Mennloe. And the sul'dam and damane, as well. It seems they too have hidden what they should not.”

I propose that after the interrogation, the truth about sul'dam was delivered to the Empress. As heir-apparent, Tuon was informed by the Empress. So imagine her shock when some Toy shows knowledge thought to be secret at the highest levels!

So there is no requirement for Tuon to be able to learn to channel in order for her to express shock, dismay, or surprise at Mat's comments. All that is required is that she be aware of the secret beforehand, which Rand's little adventure in Seanchan provides a possibility of.

Of course, one of you might also contend that the Empress told Tuon this secret only because of the fact that she can learn to channel, and she loves her daughter and meant to save her from harm. That would of course be contrary to Seanchan customs in many ways.

clarkkd: 2005-03-30

Yaga Shura

2005-03-11

Because i believe in the theory, and will continue to believe, and therefore to defend, until the issue is settled, by text evidence.

Yaga Shura

2005-03-11

You have fun with that, clarkkd, because the possibility exists for other women to attain agelessness. And I will not say otherwise because to do so would be a false assertion.

A false assertion? Are we perhaps confusing the "mask" of aglessness with that of the "longevity" of life?

So that I'm not misunderstood please provide me with "text evidence" that there is another object out there in the world that would cause a channeler to have a face that one could not put an age to.

The rest of us have given our proof as to what we see as the most logical option, you have not(provided proof).

All channelers will age slowly, only AS that have been bound with the Oath Rod (binder) will look agless, you have repetedly said this yourslef, I am baffled at why you ignor "text evidence" that continually points out that aglessness is strictly for AS. I am surprised that you haven't turned blue from all the hot air.

*********************

Callandor

2005-03-08

Callandor, you did an extremlly great job at pointing out The difference between AS and other channelers, my post right under should have waited.

*********************

to argue for or against anything a set of standards needs to be known, otherwise ankle biting occurs (too late).

So what is training?

definition 5 says: To instruct so as to make proficient or qualified.

definition 6 says: To discipline or conditon (animals) to perform tricks or obey commands.

Therefore both arguments as to how Tuon could train are valid. Profound isn't it :)

What makes a damane proficient? Qualified? her ability to channel of course.

yet to be a compotent trainer, one would need to be skilled in all aspects of the training to include the tools necessary for the training.

Toun is the heir to the throne of Sanchan, why on earth would she waste her time on only teaching/training(other synonym) obedience? How much "joy" can anyone have in teaching obedience?

For inborn channelers at what age are men and women detectable?

The Shadow Rising: The Dedicated p 303.

"He did not regret the fact that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at ten, saying he lacked the spark...."

The BWB p20:

"Of the tiny percentage of the population who have the potential to channel at all, only a small number have the ability inborn. It usually manifests itself in adolescence or early adulthood, though in general women show the abliity at a younger age then men, often much younger...."

boys can take the test as early as ten, women even earlier.

In the Eye of the World, Egwene is about 16 and she is very close to touching the true source no matter what.

Rand is between 18-20, and he is very close to touching the true source no matter what.

So What?

I would say that from the above, that a female child ~could~ start to learn to channel as early as 8 provided that she has a teacher. Men obviously at age 10. Both need to have the ability inborn (though I haven't made my mind up on that).

How old is Tuon? Why she's 19, well that would mean from the above quote that she is deffinetly in the age range to have started channeling whether from inborn ability or from the training as a suldam.

we know that a 40 year old novice looks to be 26, look at COS the Kin for the the exact qoute.

We also no that a channeler that is 400 only looks to be 50 or 60(COS the kin).

What is a der'suldam?

it is an animal master, the prefix requires a certain level of seniority.

as a side note Seanchan believe that damane are not people but dangerous animals.(BWB p164 side bar.)

How can we explaine Toun's lack of need for a der'suldam?

It is not just her social standing as heir and thus the second highest ranking individual; if this where so then she would have no need for any animal master.

I would think of it this way; in the military you have officers and enlisted (sorry not ment to be condisending), at the top you have the base commander, his word is law what he says goes. He also has a senior enlisted advisor whose function is to monitor the pulse of the junior enlisted structure (the enlisted representitive though I haven't seen it). That way when he gives a foolish order he can (and hopefully; but I haven't seen it.) modify the order so as to not lose the respect of his men.

This is how I see the function of a der'suldam, She holds a position of authority over the suldam, she gathers the "pulse" of her charges/wards(what ever) and then relates thier concerns back to her commander, she also takes orders from the commander and finds the best way in which to accomplish those goals. She is in a fine position as how to do this because she was once a junior enlisted.

Why does Tuon have no need for such a person? Why would she already know the pulse of her people? Because she has been their before.

More nonsense:

Winters heart: What a veil hides p323:

"A sister and a brother had been made da'covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as if it had been discovered they could channel...."

Is the royal family subjected to the adam tests as everyone else?

P325:

"der'suldam had all dispaired..."

This in reference to Toun had brought back to life the AS that had been starving herself.

the der'suldam had given up hope that the AS could be saved.

More importantly why even write a theory that one does not 100% agree with?

Yaga Shura: 2005-04-01

"So that I'm not misunderstood please provide me with "text evidence" that there is another object out there in the world that would cause a channeler to have a face that one could not put an age to."

I can't be bothered to go and look up the exact quotations, clarkkd, but you must be aware that the Shaido Wise Ones possess a "binder".

Are you also aware that the Oath Rod is another "binder"?

Are you aware that the Oath Rod causes agelessness through a side-effect of multiple oaths?

Therefore, are you capable of seeing that if someone swore multiple oaths on the Oath Rod held by the Shaido Wise Ones, the result would be that that woman would later attain agelessness in the sane way as an Aes Sedai.

That good enough for you?

"The rest of us have given our proof as to what we see as the most logical option, you have not(provided proof)."

So this would be:

(originally posted by Yaga Shura on 24 February 2005)

" Callandor:"Tell me, O GLotD, what other book evidence is there for training damane, other then the a'dam?"

Well, I may not be the Great Lord of the Dark, but I will tell you where methods other than the a'dam are used.

The Great Hunt, chapter40:Damane ""And if I spare her, if I allow her to visit you occasionally, will you work hard and learn as you are taught?"

"I will, High Lady"...

"If this damane proves a disappointment, perhaps then I will let you have the head of the girl.""

Egwene is being trained in obedience but no a'dam is in use. This happens again later in TGH, chapter42: Falme "Renna had made her do that once, too- made her carry her own bracelet across the room. Or try to. She was sure it had only been minutes before the sul'dam snapped the bracelet firmly on her own wrist, but to Egwene the screaming and the cramps that had her writhing on the floor had seemed to go on for hours."

Although this does involve an a'dam, there is nothing to stop Tuon having done it. Indeed any non-channeler could do this. The same chapter also contains references to damane being lectured, another thing that could be done by anyone, including Tuon.

So there you have it. Book evidence of methods other than the a'dam being used to train damane. "

And this would be:(Taken from a post by Yaga Shura, but left anonymous, on 25 February 2005)

"Observe: "'Damane have no possessions' it had been explained to her. 'The dress a damane wears, the food she eats, the bed she sleeps in, are all gifts from her sul'dam. If a sul'dam chooses that a damane sleep on the floor instead of in a bed, or in a stall in a stable, it is purely the choice of the sul'dam.' Mulaen, who had charge of the damane quarters, had a droning nasal, but she was sharp with any damane who did not remember every word of her boring lectures."(TGH, ch.42Falme) Would this by any chance be an example of a new damane being trained for her new lifestyle by a lecture? Maybe? Could be? Possibly?? "

Maybe you could actually read the thread next time. And then I wouldn't have to waste my time.

clarkkd: 2005-04-02

I love it!

I read the post all of them all 76+ pages of them! I would like to point out that I agreed with the training bit, I agreee with the training bit, I agree with the training bit. Do I need to type it again?

I am completely aware of the binder and aka the oath rod I am completly aware that Thevera(sp) was one just like it in her tent and that Galina has ordered the Queen of Geldin to steal it (faile, and Morgase)!

I have also read the question and answer of RJ about the issue of multiple oaths severly limiting the age of those who swear multiple oaths.

I would also love to point out that what the rest of the board has tried to show is that the oath rod aka the binder is the only known device that causes aglessness.

I am very sure that no one has suggested that there is another device of the one power that causes the aglessness except the binder.

I am glad that you quoted yourself on how training is done in the suldam damane relationship you have provided "text evidence" now please show me text evidence that there is another device that exist in the world that causes aglessness besides the object known in the age of legends as a binder!

I did not ask you to provide text evidence on training seeing as how I agree with both sides!

I want "text evidence" that there is another object besides the binder!

I want "text evidence" that there is another object besides the binder!

why have I repeated? Because you missed what I wrote!

Thank you for making the argument other that what I posted! This is exactly how one wins a debate make it something that was not intened in the first place!

This is supposed to be about Toun channneling:

Toun is 19, she is old enough to have started channeling if she was a sparker!

Toun is also old enough to be taught how to channnel.

When someone trains they train all the way using all methods of training, including disipline! Including the adam in this instance!

If she uses the adam, then she obviously can channel, the question that would come next is whether or not she is a sparker, next would be is the imperial family subjected to the annual test of marathdamane? I would say no because of Touns age! Sanchan test all the way up to the age of 25.

I am sorry you don't want to look up evidence that might actually have a bearing on this thread in your defense, I am glad though that you find it neccessary to attack me on things that I didn't write!

I am going to throw your own qoute back at you

***********

Maybe you could actually read the thread next time. And then I wouldn't have to waste my time.

***********

oh by the way that awful taste in your mouth is your foot!

Yaga Shura: 2005-04-03

"Thank you for making the argument other that what I posted! This is exactly how one wins a debate make it something that was not intened in the first place!"

Huh? Are you saying that I did or did not make a point opposing the one you made?

"I did not ask you to provide text evidence on training seeing as how I agree with both sides!"

You said: "The rest of us have given our proof as to what we see as the most logical option, you have not(provided proof). " So I gave you copies of those posts, in which I presented my case, and the evidence I use to support it.

"I would like to point out that I agreed with the training bit, I agreee with the training bit, I agree with the training bit. Do I need to type it again?"

Next time you might like to try stating what "training bit" you agree with. Is it that damane training does not necessarily need the use of an a'dam? Is it that making someone obedient is a form of training?

"I am very sure that no one has suggested that there is another device of the one power that causes the aglessness except the binder."

More evidence of your failure to read this thread. I said that very thing.

"I want "text evidence" that there is another object besides the binder!

I want "text evidence" that there is another object besides the binder!"

But this isn't what you were asking before: "So that I'm not misunderstood please provide me with "text evidence" that there is another object out there in the world that would cause a channeler to have a face that one could not put an age to."

From text evidence, the only object to have caused agelessness is the Oath Rod used in the raising of Aes Sedai. What I was trying to prove is that there are other objects that have the potential to cause ageless appearance. Why even ask me to do this if you already knew that the binder held in the Shaido camp has this ability?

"why have I repeated? Because you missed what I wrote!"

No. As I said above, the mistake is yours. You missed what you wrote. What you wrote was this "So that I'm not misunderstood please provide me with "text evidence" that there is another object out there in the world that would cause a channeler to have a face that one could not put an age to."

The Oath Rod in the White Tower is a single object. You can not take this one item, refer to it as a single item, and then use it to represent the entire class of items that it belongs to. Since you asked me to prove that there was another object that could cause ageless appearance, I did so.

"When someone trains they train all the way using all methods of training, including disipline! Including the adam in this instance!"

I don't even understand this.

"Toun is 19, she is old enough to have started channeling if she was a sparker!"

I know. So what? If she had touched the source, she would have suffered the reaction, just like Nynaeve did. Somebody would notice.

And why would the Imperial family be exempt from damane testing? Just because they are the Imperial family? That would be stupid, and if there is one thing the Seanchan are, it's clever.

"Toun is also old enough to be taught how to channnel."

I'm curious to hear how this is relevant. As far as I can see, that has nothing to do with the issue here.

clarkkd: 2005-04-04

1. I wrote about the binder, you wrote about training, seeing as how they are not the same you did not make an opposing argument that was valid.

clarkkd on 2005-03-30

A false assertion? Are we perhaps confusing the "mask" of aglessness with that of the "longevity" of life?

So that I'm not misunderstood please provide me with "text evidence" that there is another object out there in the world that would cause a channeler to have a face that one could not put an age to.

The rest of us have given our proof as to what we see as the most logical option, you have not (provided proof).

All channelers will age slowly, only AS that have been bound with the Oath Rod (binder) will look ageless, you have repetedly said this yourself, I am baffled at why you ignore "text evidence" that continually points out that agelessness is strictly for AS.

~~~~~~~~~

the above should have stayed together, you took it apart and made it fight your view, this should have been read only in the context of binders, not training!



**********************

* empty space *

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2. The training bit if you would read the definition and my comment under it you would see that those that have been arguing have been arguing about the seperate definitions of the word. both arguments need to be combined and taken as the whole concept!

clarkkd on 2005-03-30

to argue for or against anything a set of standards needs to be known, otherwise ankle biting occurs (too late).

So what is training?

definition 5 says: To instruct so as to make proficient or qualified.

definition 6 says: To discipline or conditon (animals) to perform tricks or obey commands.

Therefore both arguments as to how Tuon could train are valid. Profound isn't it :)

~~~~~~~~~~~

You did not read where I agreed with both sides did you?

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* empty space *

**********************

3. To train you need disiplne(sp) and the tools of training otherwise it is useless!

3a. Obedience is a tool!

3b. The Adam is a tool!

3c. Both need to be used to train damane!

3d. Therefore I agree with the training bit: BOTH SIDES which I stated and you ignored!

SEE ABOVE #2

4. from the original post of mine that started this [explitive] fest I stated that you agreed and thus my confusion on why you would think that there is another device of the one power that causes aglessness.

4a. Now I know, you seperate binders as different objects. I don't!

5. You gave evidence of trainig in every quote you gave, and then you attacked me on it when in fact I asked about binders

Yaga Shura on 2005-04-01

So there you have it. Book evidence of methods other than the a'dam being used to train damane. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is how you ended your post I did not ask about training!

yaga shura 2005-04-03

I did not ask you to provide text evidence on training seeing as how I agree with both sides!"

You said: "The rest of us have given our proof as to what we see as the most logical option, you have not(provided proof). " So I gave you copies of those posts, in which I presented my case, and the evidence I use to support it.

~~~~~~~~~~

and you did not read what I wrote...see above!

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* empty space *

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6. Actually I asked you to provide me with evidence that there is an object besides the binders

7. Binders cause agelessness they are the same just becuase they have different numurals does not mean they are not binders.

8. Make this into something other... a binder is a binder is a binder, the oath rod (improperly named by AS, seeing as how it is a binder) is the easiest item to refer to as it has been mentioned quite early in the series, and only recently has the one in Thervera(sp)s camp been found and otherwise given a new name.

8a. Instead of trying to prove that Tuon can or cannot channel, you have me defending what I wrote which you read wrong. Eventually I will give up and by default you win, so go ahead find something else to detract from Tuon can or can not channel so we spend even more time getting away from the point!

9. my mistake?...but you gave qoutes about training?

10. training: obedience is a part of training, if you had bothered to read the definition, so is the actuall deed, ie showing the damane how to channel.

10a: For instance if you where going to learn how to punch, you would use a body bag, you would also be under the instruction of a qualified instructor. If you where to fail to obey the instruction, the instructor could use disiple to try and make you work harder.

11. Please stop taking the bits and pieces and trying to make an argument:

I did not say she was a sparker...wait let me post it again and then comment on it!

******************

This is supposed to be about Tuon channneling:

Tuon is 19, she is old enough to have started channeling if she was a sparker!

Tuon is also old enough to be taught how to channnel.

*******************

this was to show that she actually is in the age range to channel, seeing as how there where very many posts on age qualifications of channelers I thought it would be relevent.

how do we know this?

well let me re-post what I wrote:

******

For inborn channelers at what age are men and women detectable?

The Shadow Rising: The Dedicated p 303.

"He did not regret the fact that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at ten, saying he lacked the spark...."

The BWB p20:

"Of the tiny percentage of the population who have the potential to channel at all, only a small number have the ability inborn. It usually manifests itself in adolescence or early adulthood, though in general women show the abliity at a younger age then men, often much younger...."

In the Eye of the World, Egwene is about 16 and she is very close to touching the true source no matter what.

Rand is between 18-20, and he is very close to touching the true source no matter what.

******

This part was to show the exact age you will begin to channel if you do not have a teacher;

18 for boys

16 for girls

subtract and we see a differance of 2,

now if we combine the differance with that of the age 10 bit above we see that a girl at the age of 8, could be taught how to channel if she where a sparker.

12. how is Tuon being old enough to learn to channel relevent?

This puts her in the age range to be able to use the a'dam, which is quite relevent.

13. toward the end of my post I quoted the sister and brother of Tuon that had been made da'covale

"... discoved to channel..." this part if in refernce to just the sister would very much swing toward the imperial fammily having to take the marath'damane test, but seeing as how a brother was mentioned in the same breath with no distinction between the two, it is fairly accurate to assume (oh no not that) that it would have been a manifistaion of the one power and not the annual testing.

**********************************

**********************************

I can't be bothered to go and look up the exact quotations, clarkkd, but you must be aware that the Shaido Wise Ones possess a "binder".

Are you also aware that the Oath Rod is another "binder"?

Are you aware that the Oath Rod causes agelessness through a side-effect of multiple oaths?

Therefore, are you capable of seeing that if someone swore multiple oaths on the Oath Rod held by the Shaido Wise Ones, the result would be that that woman would later attain agelessness in the sane way as an Aes Sedai.

**********************************

**********************************

This was not text evidence this was a bitch fest for no reason!

I am sure that you will agree that this is very agrivating and becoming uncivil! and it is going to get worse!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

************

Do you shop by specific serial number?

If I asked you to go to the store and pick up a deck of cards would you not know what it is I wanted? Would it baffle you seeing as how the store caries more than one?

It would be completly different if I said: "Please get my a deck of Hoyle cards with a red back, and jumbo print".

Everyone was using the first method when they where talking about the "oath rod" a generic descriptive narritive.

But on the other hand if someone had said the "oath rod" with the numeral three on it only causes aglessness then I can start to see how you would say they are not the same.

clarkkd: 2005-04-16

Fires of Heaven The threads Burn.

"We are linked." Still not paying attention, Nynaeve gave her braid a sharp pull. No way to tell which direction they had gone. And no warning o fanything until she say them. Somehow it..."you brainless fool,"..."...We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are. Not a shred. It is my strength, and you madness...."

Moghedien opened her mouth, and Nynaeve filled it wit a gag of Air. Or rather she made Moghedien do it; with the a'dam linking them, it was like channeling herself, but Moghedien knew it was her own abilities being used like a tool in Nynaeve's hand...."

*****************

I interperet the first part, that Nynaeve is not angry enought to channel and that the holder does not need to use her strength if she so chooses.

I interperet the second part, She is channeling, she directs the flows through Moghedien.

Aiel Finn: 2005-04-18

See exactally, even if someone has the possiblity of channeling, she can use an a'dam. Nynaeve can't even see the flows at times, but she can always use an a'dam.

William Seeker: 2005-08-23

The Seanchan set great store in Sul'dam even though she's a daughter of the emperess theyed still send her off to be a sul'dam and someone else could be the Daughjter of the Nine Moons.

Callandor: 2005-08-25

**The Seanchan set great store in Sul'dam even though she's a daughter of the emperess theyed still send her off to be a sul'dam and someone else could be the Daughjter of the Nine Moons.**

How's that? Seanchan nobility can only be nobility? They can't do anything else?

You're struck from the Imperial Family the same way you're struck from a lot of families:

1. If you're a woman, and you're a sparker and made into a damane, you're completely forgotten and erased from records.

2. If you're a man, and a sparker, you're outright killed, and struck from records.

In either case, we know Tuon is still the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and, unless you want to say she's outright lying, she's trained damane. Who are the only people that train damane? Sul'dam. It's not a hard thing to see here.

WaterSeeker: 2005-09-19

"How's that? Seanchan nobility can only be nobility? They can't do anything else?"

As I mentioned before this is why becoming Sul'dam is unthinkable.

silverwolf: 2005-09-25

GLotD, your entire argument, as I see it, boils down to the fact that nowhere has Jordan specifically said that Tuon has used an adam or can channel. That's like arguing that because Jordan hasn't specifically said that Rand used the restroom, he hasn't (if that's the case, I feel sorry for the guy--it's been a couple of years in Randland since the start of the series :) ). It's ridiculous. And, although each argument individually doesn't hold much weight, when taken together, the implication is that Tuon can learn to channel and has, in fact, used an adam. Any argument against this has boiled down to "Robert Jordan hasn't specifically said that so I won't believe it."

Yaga Shura--the "binder" and the Oath rod are the same thing--different physical objects, but made by the same group of people (AoL Aes Sedai who could make ter'angreal)for the same purpose--to bind (female) channelers from committing some crime. For the sake of this argument, claiming that they are different objects is petty and simply shows the weakness of your arguments. Your assertion that there could be some other object out there that also causes an ageless appearance and we simply haven't seen it yet is also crap--we have no evidence to believe such an object exists, and if it never enters into the plot of the series, its existence (or lack thereof) is completely irrelevant. In a world of infinite possibilities, there could be a ter'angreal that makes flatulance noises whenever a person over the age of thirty speaks, but we have no reason to suspect it exists and its existence (or not) has no bearing on the series (unless power-wrought flatulance is crucial to the Last Battle...)

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-26

"Yaga Shura--the "binder" and the Oath rod are the same thing--different physical objects, but made by the same group of people (AoL Aes Sedai who could make ter'angreal)for the same purpose--to bind (female) channelers from committing some crime. For the sake of this argument, claiming that they are different objects is petty and simply shows the weakness of your arguments."

The OAth Rod is, very specifically, the binder held and used by the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon. It is a binder, yes, and I've said that before.

Also, why is it so hard for you to understand that any Binder can cause agelessness?

silverwolf: 2005-09-27

It's not hard to understand--everyone here does. We simply argue that, for the purposes of discussion, all binders are oath rods. It's like referring to any tissue as a "kleenex" or any bandage as a "band-aid," regardless as to whether or not those products are that particular brand. It's a fairly common practice in the English language, and arguing against it is simply petty nitpicking, not a true objection.

Yaga Shura: 2005-09-27

"all binders are oath rods."

You have it backwards (well, just about). To argue that is akin to arguing that all male channelers are Rand al'Thor.

silverwolf: 2005-09-30

You're right, Yaga, I did say that wrong. It should have said that all binders are the same as the oath rod--completely identical in function and differing only in the number in form. That's why many of us do not distinguish between the terms "oath rod" and binder--other than nitpicking technicalities, there is no need to distinguish between two terms that refer to such similar items. So, yes, if you want to look at it that way, the oath rod is not the only item that can cause the ageless appearance; rather, the oath rod class of ter'angreal (i.e.:"binders") is the only class of item capable of causing the ageless look.

I'm curious--do people posting on this thread think that there really is such a thing as a "binding chair?" I am convinced that the "binding chair" is like the "traveling boxes"--that is, a cover up for Sammael channeling to cause the actual effect. I think that had it been to his advantage, Sammael would have shown up with an impressive looking but otherwise ordinary chair and used compulsion to produce the desired effect.

koolaidkirby: 2005-10-16

WARNING: Knife of Dreams Spoiler







yes she can, knife of dreams she acts as a sul'dam to one of the aes sedai and is clearly shown to have sul'dam abilities, therefore giving here the ability to channel (not the spark however)

ems: 2005-12-04

If Tuon can use the a'dam she can channel. It is a fact.

Frenzy: 2005-12-05

no, ems, she has the ~potential~ to channel. Considering she's used the a'dam for a while, she may eventually channel the way Bethamin did. However, she's stated that she chooses not to. She hasn't started yet, so she may very well never actively channel herself.

Also, keep in mind that this theory was written before KoD came out. Hence why it's filed under BKoD.

Karede: 2006-06-28

Tuons reaction is very stone-faced after the revelation. She usually does this when presented with something she does not like.

Also...she tells Mat she "chooses not to channel, just as I choose not to commit robbery or murder." Why would Tuon think she could learn to channel if she had not handled the a'dam.

KaetySedai: 2006-10-29

I love your theory, I thought that training damane meant her being able to channel, but after re-reading the passage a few times, its easy to see that Tuon probable can't channel. It never said she could be a sul'dam. It said she tested and that it was out of the question which could mean that she can't channel or that she couldn't because she was the daughter of nine moons. Most sul'dam would use the adam to inflict pain on the damane, and doing it with a cane would probably make it worse of the sul'dams part.

Callandor: 2006-11-01

As was said before, this theory was written before Knife of Dreams came out -- where it was shown to be irrevocably incorrect. Tuon can learn to channel. She is a sul'dam.

TheDragonMustLive: 2006-12-23

Obviously, by now everyone knows that she can channel (as was shown in Knife of Dreams). What I want to know is how you could possibly come up with this theory in the first place. You can't use "traditional" training methods on a damane. There is no other way than with an a'dam. Without someone completing the link, the damane is incapable of channeling, therefore cannot be trained. An untrained damane being let off the leash to be trained with "traditional" methods is unthinkable to the Seanchan because even a TRAINED damane is not to be trusted unleashed. I'm nopt trying to offend, but this theory made absolutely no sense, even if it was made before Knife of Dreams.

gambler: 2007-08-10

Tuon can already be able to channel. When she tries to hold Mat with flows of air in KoD, she says that the flows just melted away from him. ONLY PEOPLE THAT CAN CHANNEL CAN SEE FLOWS. Therefore she can start channeling at any time. Only a small amount at first, but she can channel.

sklbrgt: 2009-10-15

sorry man, when Tuon and Selucia puts the a'dam on the Aes Sedai, one of them tries to use the one power against Mat, and Tuon says "the weave melted when it touched you"

In other words, she can see the weaves...

To be able to see the weaves = being able to channel

Prince of Shandalle: 2009-10-20

It is stated that after sul'dam use the a'dam over many years they get an "affinity" to the weaves, and some can see them. I beleive Tuon is like this.

If she could channel it would have been discovered already. RJ likes to have really cool and intelligent characters, but i don't believe that he's cliche enough to make Tuon a channeler. It wouldn't be relevant to the story or to her position within the story. She is solely a Sul'dam, and can therefore LEARN to channel, but i wouldn't say that the spark was inborn within her.

evilcarebear: 2010-08-03

NO!!!!!!Tuon cannot channel!*sob sob* On a more rational note, you may notice that the main women who can't channel in the story are Min and Faile, both of whom are girlfriend to a ta'veren. Stands to reason Tuon wouldn't be able to as well.

Also, Tuon would be collared by her people if she could channel, the moment a damane sensed it, and RJ would not allow it to happen.

cantstandnynaeve: 2010-08-03

I am still doing my re-read and have not yet read TGS. However, I have nearly finished KoD round 2. I can't tell the actual page numbers, but there is an interesting exchange between Mat, Tuon, Joline, Teslyn, Bethamin and the other captured suldam(Seta?). Tuon is put out by the 2 suldams learning to channel from the Aes Sedai. Satelle Anan points out that Tuon might herself be able to learn to channel. Tuon concedes that she might, but "I choose not to."

She compares the choice of choosing not to channel as similar to choosing not to be a criminal. It was a very interesting confirmation from Tuon that she is aware of the hypocrasy of the suldam and damane relationship. She also makes it clear that she is comfortable with the distinction between choosing to learn and the natural spark. It makes you wonder if the revelation that the suldam can channel is not necessarily new to Seanchan higher ups. Once I read TGS, I may realize I am way off.

Marie Curie 7: 2010-08-09

evilcarebear:
"NO!!!!!!Tuon cannot channel!*sob sob* On a more rational note, you may notice that the main women who can't channel in the story are Min and Faile, both of whom are girlfriend to a ta'veren. Stands to reason Tuon wouldn't be able to as well.

Also, Tuon would be collared by her people if she could channel, the moment a damane sensed it, and RJ would not allow it to happen."

We know that Tuon can learn to channel. She has trained as a sul'dam, and we know that sul'dam are women who can learn to channel:

----------------
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 21 - A Matter of Property

Egeanin rubbed at her eyes wearily. Perhaps there was a conspiracy, after all. Or Suroth might be hiding what the pair were to protect the Empire. The Empire depended on sul'dam; its strength was built on them. The news that sul'dam were women who could learn to channel might shatter the Empire to its core. It had surely shaken her. Maybe shattered her. She herself had not freed Bethamin out of duty. So many things had changed in Tanchico. She no longer believed that any woman who could channel deserved to be collared. Criminals, certainly, and maybe those who refused oaths to the Crystal Throne, and. . . . She did not know. Once, her life had been made up of rock-solid certainties, like guiding stars that never failed. She wanted her old life back. She wanted a few certainties.
----------------

Tuon even admits that she can learn to channel in Knife of Dreams, as much as she would likely ever admit, anyway; she just 'chooses' not to channel:

----------------
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 9 - A Short Path

"Listen," Mat said to Tuon. "If you think, you'll see a hundred reasons this won't work. Light, you can learn to channel yourself. Doesn't knowing that change anything? You're not far different from them." He might as well have turned to smoke and blown away for all the attention she paid.

"Try to embrace saidar," she drawled, stern eyes steady on Joline. Her voice was quite mild in comparison to her gaze, yet plainly she expected obedience. Obedience? She looked a bloody leopard staring at three tethered goats. And strangely, more beautiful than ever. A beautiful leopard who might rake him with her claws as soon as the goats. Well, he had faced a leopard a few times before this, and those were his own memories. There was an odd sort of exhilaration that came with confronting a leopard. "Go ahead," she went on. "You know the shield is gone." Joline gave a small grunt of surprise, and Tuon nodded. "Good. You've obeyed for the first time. And learned that you cannot touch the Power while you wear the a'dam unless I wish it. But now, I wish you to hold the Power, and you do, though you didn't try to embrace it." Joline’s eyes widened slightly, a small crack in her calm. "And now," Tuon went on, "I wish you not to be holding the Power, and it is gone from you. Your first lessons." Joline drew a deep breath. She was beginning to look… not afraid, but uneasy.

"Blood and bloody ashes, woman," Mat growled, "do you think you can parade them around on those leashes without anyone noticing?" A heavy thump came from the door. A second produced the sound of cracking wood. Whoever was beating at the wooden window was still at it, too. Somehow, that caused no sense of urgency. If the Warders got in, what could they do?

"I will house them in the wagon they are using and exercise them at night." she snapped irritably. "I am nothing like these women, Toy. Nothing like them. Perhaps I could learn, but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That makes all the difference."
----------------

cantstandnynaeve:
"I am still doing my re-read and have not yet read TGS. However, I have nearly finished KoD round 2. I can't tell the actual page numbers, but there is an interesting exchange between Mat, Tuon, Joline, Teslyn, Bethamin and the other captured suldam(Seta?). Tuon is put out by the 2 suldams learning to channel from the Aes Sedai. Satelle Anan points out that Tuon might herself be able to learn to channel. Tuon concedes that she might, but "I choose not to."

She compares the choice of choosing not to channel as similar to choosing not to be a criminal. It was a very interesting confirmation from Tuon that she is aware of the hypocrasy of the suldam and damane relationship. She also makes it clear that she is comfortable with the distinction between choosing to learn and the natural spark. It makes you wonder if the revelation that the suldam can channel is not necessarily new to Seanchan higher ups. Once I read TGS, I may realize I am way off."

Yeah, the quote about Tuon being able to learn to channel is given above. There is no confirmation that the Empress or those directly associated with her know that sul'dam are women who can learn to channel, but it seems pretty likely based on Tuon's reaction. But very few others in Seanchan, if any, must know.