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Home | Index | Archives | Help
o Sul'dam Slow?
by Frenzy: 2005-03-23 | 6.53 out of 10 (17 votes)
Previous Categories: The Seanchan
A Crown of Swords, Chapter24: The Kin: (Elayne's pov): “Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman who can channel does it. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of achieving the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shawl at least a year or two, sometimes five or more. Think. You know any sister with gray hair is old, even if you aren't supposed to mention it. So if Reanne slowed, and she must have, how old is she?”
The Shadow Rising, Chapter 49: Cold Rocks Hold: Amys studied him, those clear blue eyes as sharp as an Aes Sedai's. But then, she could channel; her face merely looked younger than it should, not ageless, but maybe she was as much Aes Sedai as an Aes Sedai.
A Crown of Swords, Chapter 34: Ta'veren: "I am Harine din Togara Two Winds, Wavemistress to Clan Shodein," announced the one with the most earrings, a handsome, full-mouthed woman in red brocade wearing five fat little gold rings in each ear. There were white streaks through her straight black hair, and fine lines at the corners of her eyes. She had an impressive dignity. ... Only three rings hung from each of Taval's ears, fine like those of the Sailmistress. She looked younger than Shalon, no older than himself.
Harine is Shalon's younger sister, sufficiently younger that Shalon raised her with her own children. Yet Shalon looks young enough to be a little older than Rand.
Winter's Heart, Chapter 8: The Sea Folk and Kin: Alivia ... says she hates all the sul'dam, and she certainly makes a good show of it, snarling at them and cursing them, but. . . ." She shook her head slowly in doubt. "She was collared at thirteen or fourteen, Elayne, she's not certain which, and she's been damane for four hundred years! And aside from that, she is . . . she's . . . Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve," she finished in a rush. Age, the Kin might discuss openly, but they had all the Aes Sedai reticence about speaking of strength in the Power.
Wise Ones, Windfinders and Damane all look younger than they should and live longer than normal people.
Sul'dam are an interesting group. They are Learners, meaning that they have the ability to learn how to channel. They work closely with the Power, but not directly. But they display several abilities/traits that are associated only with people who actively channel.
1. Their abilities can be detected by other channelers, in a limited fashion.
Winter's Heart, Chapter: 8: The Sea Folk and Kin: "They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. ~ It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. ... I have never sensed anything like it before. ..."
2. They have a limited ability to see weaves, and sense other channelers and judge their strength.
The Great Hunt, Chapter 40: Damane: Renna shook her head almost sadly. “When one has been a sul'dam long enough,” she told Egwene, “one learns to tell many things about damane even without the bracelet, but with the bracelet one can always tell whether a damane has tried to channel.”
The Great Hunt, Chapter 42: Falme: "You still do not know what this is like." Egwene tugged at the collar; pulling did no more good than channeling had. "When Renna is wearing that bracelet, she knows what I am doing with the Power, and what I am not. Sometimes she even seems to know when she isn't wearing it; she says sul'dam develop - an affinity, she calls it - after a while."
Winter's Heart, Chapter: 20 - Questions of Treason: Not simply horror at seeing two sul'dam revealed as marath'damane, but her own sudden personal terror. Often she thought she could almost see damane's weaves, and she could always sense a damane's presence and know how strong she was. Many sul'dam could; everyone knew it came from long experience at handling the a'dam...Did she almost see the weaves, or did she really see? Sometimes she thought she felt the channeling, too.
The Seanchan scour the population looking for marath'damane. They also look for potential sul'dam. Something must keep the future sul'dam from being detected during the marath'damane testings. Easy enough: they have not been taught to channel, nor worked with the Power. Like Damer Flinn and Sharina Melloy, they would live normal lives with normal aging if they never started to channel. But something changes. Sul'dam are trained to their jobs. They indirectly work with the Power. They never directly wield it themselves (though there is one Behtamin quote that brings THAT part of the equation into question), but they do work with the Power. And they develop abilities limited to those who do channel.
3. Sul'dam can be held by an a'dam
The Great Hunt, Chapter: 46 - To Come Out of the Shadow: "I told you," Min said. "That collar shouldn't have worked on her." She was doing up the last buttons down Egwene's back. "Any woman who couldn't channel would be able to beat you silly while you tried to control her with it.
"All of those they find," Egwene told her. "But those they can find are like you, and me, and Elayne. We were born with it, ready to channel whether anyone taught us or not. But what about Seanchan girls who aren't born with the ability, but who could be taught? Not just any woman can become a - a Leash Holder. Renna thought she was being friendly telling me about it. It is apparently a feastday in Seanchan villages when the sul'dam come to test the girls. They want to find any like you and me, and leash them, but they let all the others put on a bracelet to see if they can feel what the poor woman in the collar feels. Those who can are taken away to be trained as sul'dam. They are the women who could be taught."
While training to become sul'dam, the damane and the a'dam indirectly teach the sul'dam how to channel. In effect, they are specialized channelers who indirectly channel, and display limited abilities associated only with women who wield the One Power.
Conclusion: It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that Sul'dam Slow, and like all of their channeling-related abilities, their Slowing is to a limited degree.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-04-01
I think the defining question is, does slowing only occur if the Learner has actually channeled? For those who have the natural ability, they will channel no matter their choice, in other words, they will slow or die, one of the two. However, before they channel, can they begin to feel and see some of the same things the Seanchan sul'dam can? If an individual never actually touches the OP, will it still cause their body to slow? Like you said, Frenzy, maybe the answer is, they will slow to a limited degree, possibly not even to a noticeable degree.
Frenzy: 2005-04-01
"I think the defining question is, does slowing only occur if the Learner has actually channeled? ... If an individual never actually touches the OP, will it still cause their body to slow?"
It basically depends on where you set the threshold. Sul'dam don't channel, yet they can be held by the a'dam. They're tested until their 25th birthday to make sure they're not marath'damane. Something must occur during their training that activates their leanring ability enough so that the a'dam holds them.
Is channeling required for slowing? Well, from looking at Damer Flinn and Sharina Melloy, i'd say yes. But is what the Sul'dam do close enough? Considering they pick up other channeler-only traits, i'd say yes.
Callandor: 2005-04-01
**But is what the Sul'dam do close enough? Considering they pick up other channeler-only traits, i'd say yes.**
I'd say no, since they never actually channel (as the Winter's Heart quote says). If they did slow to a minute degree, it'd be even less then Morgase does.
mako0424: 2005-04-01
I should think it is obvious that they do slow, but much less then they would if they channeled alot.
i think amount of channeling done, in conjunction with strength in the Power determines how slow you Slow, and how early and consequently how long you live. So i would assume all these facts are the same for Sul'Dam and Damane, but one interesting thing i noted, is neither thge sul'dam nor the damane have ever made a reference to sul'dam and damne ages. we know they slow, but wouldnt that mean suldam slow to some degree, and why havent the other Senachan associated the Slowing of the sul'dam with the damane's Slowing at all, i think there might either be ignorance on the Seanchan's behalf, or a cover up on the Sul'dam's behalf, and that the upper-crust Noble Blood, and der-sul'dam know that sul'dam can channel and cover this all up.
Gareth: 2005-04-01
What we call "slowing" is the growing gap between a channeler's real age and his physical age (how old his body looks like).
We know that a strong channeler has a longer life expectancy that a weak one. That means that the stronger a channeler, the more he slows (ie: the more his body will need time to grow old). A contrario, the weaker a channeler is, the less he will slow (ie: he will slow but his body will grow old quickly if compared with a stronger channeler).
Moreover, Morgase Trakand CAN channel. She is just so weak that it is useless. But she isn't said to have slowed. Since she can channel, she MUST have slowed. That shows that a slowing can be too slight to be noticed.
Winter's Heart, Chapter: 8: The Sea Folk and Kin: "...It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. ... I have never sensed anything like it before. ..." .
In the power, Suld'am can be considered as the weakest of the weak. Therefore if they slow, their slowing is so slight that it is as good as non-existent.
clarkkd: 2005-04-02
The Great Hunt: New Friends and Old Enimies P301.
"I've had a few lessons already," Egwene said, trying to sound modest. She opened herself to saidar-that part of it was feasier now- and felt the warmth suffuse her body....a glowing shpere formed over it, pure light. It wavered-she still could not manage to hold it steady- but it was there....
...After a moment, a faint light glowed all around Elayne. Egwene gasped, her ball vanished.
Elyane giggled..."you saw it around me?"..."
*******
It seems to me that channeling has some prerequisits(sp)
to see the "glow" surrounding someone you have to have a small ability to control saidar as seen above.
We have seen multiple times that suldam can see the glow around damane. We should be able to assume(oh no, don't assume :) ) that the suldam have at least this weak control of the one power.
Therefore if slowing is caused only by actively channenling and how strong one is in the one power. Which gains strength steadily in women. that the suldam can slow but not much.
Rune420: 2005-04-02
If I remember correctly, we have had PoVs from only 2 sul'dam (Bethamel and Renna I think). Have you went through those to see if they give any hint to thier age? I'm sure you have, but if there is a clue to the age of them, then we could compare it to the description of the two Sul'dam and have our answer.
bigjellybeans: 2005-04-02
From the evidence you have shown, it seems apparent that the more a woman uses the OP the younger they look. Aes sedai probably use the power more than women of any other cultures and for that one of their distinct features is the agelessness. Aiel wise ones generally refrain from using the power. I think it was said somewhere in TSR, but they do use it sometimes and would look younger if not as young as AS . Other than the individuals that control the wind I'm not sure how often the sea folk use the power but they generally try to keep it secret from the tower so their use of the power would be very sparingly which would show why they dont look as young. But would suldam slow? It might be possible.
Elayne's study of the adam in the fires of heaven showed that there is an apparent link between the suldam and the damane. It is possible that when the damane is allowed to embrace the power that a residue of the power if you will may actually reach the suldam through the link. This may be how the suldam gets exposed directly to the power and could achieve the slowing of age. But I dont think I have ever read in the books a mention of Suldam looking younger or living longer than they should. This could be because the Seanchean do not even notice the difference but that is highly unlikely. So perhaps that is how they "could" look younger.
Since we are on the subject I thought I would ask the question: Is there a similar slowing of age in male channellers?
Tamyrlin: 2005-04-02
I think we are being too quick to say that sul'dam DO slow. While I agreed it was possible, we are given to understand that sul'dam haven't actually touched the OP on their own. Also, we know Learners, who aren't taught to touch the OP, do not slow. So, while the sul'dam (Learners) are being exposed via the a'dam to channeling, they haven't "touched" the OP, as far as we know. Sul'dam who can be held by an a'dam, are those who have created a link to the OP, but who haven't touched it yet. They are at the same crossroads as a Natural Born Channeler, before the NBC has touched the OP. Of course, the NBC will touch it, but that connection natural occurs in them, at puberty, enabling the a'dam to work on them, even though they probably hadn't channeled. In other words, is it the connection to the OP, or actually touching the OP, that causes slowing?
Callandor: 2005-04-03
**In other words, is it the connection to the OP, or actually touching the OP, that causes slowing?**
I'd say it's both -- the first touching of the One Power, establishes a connection but that's just an opinion really ;)
NargsBrood: 2005-04-03
aes sedai use the power more than other cultures? I disagree with that notion. Damane use it constantly... what suldam would pass up the opportunity to snatch up an idle damane? Also, the windfinders are probably the most "long winded"(no pun intended) when it comes to channeling the power.we saw how the one that took nyn and elayne to... tanchico was it? She used it the whole way. Anyway, the only time the windfinders cannot channel is when they are at port or within 10 - 20 miles of shore, maybe a little more/less. That means that over the several million square miles of ocean, they have free reign. I dont think they would be worried about aes sedai notice 500 miles out. What about other cultures we know nothing about like the other side of the waste. We dont know exactly how important channeling plays in their society... but from what we hear it is a big one. they even allow male channelors live long enough to sprout little beans. they could use the power just as much as aes sedai.
Just a side note. There is a difference between Aes Sedai Agelessness and other Channelor's Slowing of Age. Aes Sedai Agelessness is cause by swearing on the oath rod. makes it hard to put an age to an aes sedai. it is a "true side effect."
The age slowing by others is simply that... they age more slowly. They still grow old.
Now, do they get wrinkly when they get old? Or is the term "age slowly" an inadequit description? Perhaps it is more: "with slow age remaining young?" The only real way to mark an old channelor that isnt aes sedai is by the color of their hair, or is that just with Aes Sedai?
Davian93: 2005-04-03
****Moreover, Morgase Trakand CAN channel. She is just so weak that it is useless. But she isn't said to have slowed. Since she can channel, she MUST have slowed. That shows that a slowing can be too slight to be noticed****
Not exactly true. Rand notices that when he first meets Morgase in tEotW, that she looks too young to be the mother of Gawyn and Elayne.
To quote: "Morgase had her daughter's beauty, matured and ripened. Her face and figure, her presence, filled the room like a light that dimmed the other two with her. If she had been a widow in Emond's Field, she would have had a line of suitors outside her door even if she was the worst cook and most slovenly housekeeper in the Two Rivers."
She has to be approx 38-40 years old at this point. This is hardly the description of a approx 40 year old woman before the time of Botox and plastic surgery. So Morgase has definitely slowed noticably.
Garayur: 2005-04-03
The amount a channeler slows is dependant on the amount of strength he/she has. Morgase is slowing due to her ability. It looks as if she is slowing much but that is in comparison to Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai swear on the Binder (oath rod) wich limits thier lifespan. Morgase has not sworn on the Binder meaning her slowing has not been affected. Aes Sedai only live a couple centuries while those not bound live much longer. The Kin lives closer to 800 years and and I believe on of the Damane has lived 1,000 years. Moghedian was about 4 or 5 hundred and was noly considered about middle aged. Essentaly morgase will live maybe a decade longer than if she did not channel do to her weakness.
I believe that that the ability to sense and see the glow and the one power comes from working with it. Suldam do not channel them selves and so could be considered weaker than even Morgase but they are in what Elayne describes as a one way circle. as Nynaeve shows it is possible to chanal through someone caught in an adam without channeling yourself. This is why the suldam can see and sense the flows. it is kind of like being near the ocean. channelers can get in the water and go out a distance, the more powerful the further. Morgase could be said to maybe soak her feet feet in it or just touch it. Suldam are only realy experiancing it through the ambient moisture. They probably do slow but it could be as little as a couple of years to a few months.
bigjellybeans: 2005-04-04
** aes sedai use the power more than other cultures? I disagree with that notion. Damane use it constantly... what suldam would pass up the opportunity to snatch up an idle damane? **
Damane in fact do not use the power constantly. In reading the white coffee table book of the wheel of time under the seanchean, It says the damane are used as weapons, in construction, and those few rare individuals that can find metals. Occasionally it says that those unique few that can heal will use their talents on "very important" people of the seanchean society. Other than these listed above the damane dont seem to do much else with the power at all. They arent even allowed to embrace the true source unless the suldam allows them to. This compared to an Aes Sedai that use the power to light their rooms, pour their wine or, put their slippers on if they wanted to. So I am going to stand by my belief that Aes sedai use the power more than others.
clarkkd: 2005-04-04
lets talk about scale:
The damane use there power in huge quantities: buildings, weapons, etc
Aes Sedia: minor items in everyday life, the largest thing that they do in present day is rain/lightning storms to distract whitecloaks, and to make exploding catapults.
Frenzy: 2005-04-04
For those that think slowing is dependent on strength: you're right, but you're not as right as you think you are. Look at Sorelia. She is old enough to have a grandchild who has a grandson who is old enough to be a suitor for Egwene. That's five generations, and assuming 20 years between generations that'd put her at 120 years old. That's a low end estimate, i'd put her closer to 150. Cadsuane comments that Sorelia may be as old as she is, and Cadsuane's pushing 250 years old. Nobody would consider Sorelia a strong channeler in any sense of the word. Nobody would consider her youthful, either. But 120 is 40 years beyond your average lifespan, maybe more considering the stressful environment of the Waste.
The more powerful you are, the more you slow. (Cadsuane) But being weak doesn't mean the slowing is only a few years, or even a few decades.
Callandor: 2005-04-05
**The more powerful you are, the more you slow. (Cadsuane) But being weak doesn't mean the slowing is only a few years, or even a few decades.**
She's noticibly stronger then Morgase in any case. Sorilea can channel at will -- Morgase is practically a stilled person, and has only touched saidar a few times (believe she says 20 times to form an image; 50 times of that to touch saidar).
Sorilea is weak compared to Aes Sedai strength I'd say. If there was a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being average Aes Sedai strength, I'd put Sorilea as a 5 or 6; Morgase would be a clear cut winner of the 1.
We have not met anyone with as feeble an ability to channel as Morgase -- sul'dam would be theoretically less then that (if at all).
Dorindha: 2005-04-05
I agree with Frenzy's last point that slowing is directly related to strength. Morgase is affected, but not enough to be worthy of comment - she looks good for her age. I don't think frequency of channelling and sheer amount of power handled affects it - once the process is started it happens, and even if you didn't channel again it would still be in process.
I think sul'dam probably slow, even if they never consciously channel, as they are a conduit for the power in a circle with the damane, thus do channel.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-06
What about Nynaeve's channeling, Satael Anan says that she looks to be 18 or so; however, she is actually nearer to 30. She is one of the strongest AS in ages even if she doesn't channel that much due to her need of anger.
Frenzy: 2005-04-06
What's more remarkable, a 26-year-old looking 20 or a 300-year-old looking 30?
Frenzy: 2005-04-19
Callandor wrote: We have not met anyone with as feeble an ability to channel as Morgase -- sul'dam would be theoretically less then that (if at all).
That's not entirely true. Slowing depends on strength in the One Power, which is unique to each channeler. Learners aren't always weaker than sparkers. Look at Sharina.
Sul'dam stand with one foot poised over the brink of active channeling. It is that lack of commitment that keeps them from realizing their full potential for Slowing, and all of the other fringe benefits of channeling. Their limited abilities has nothing to do with their potential strength.
clarkkd: 2005-04-20
I.Point by point Channeling through the a'dam compared to channeling in a circle.
A. Linking
1. “Now I will reach out to her....” Nynaeve paused, looking.... “You open yourself to the Source through an agreal, just as I will through Elayne. AS though you mean to embrace the angreal and the Source at the same time. It isn't very difficult, really.... That way, when I embrace through you, I'll embrace through the angreal as well.” (The Path of Daggers: The Breaking Storm.)
2. “It was proven conclusibely that one woman cannot form a link with another against her will.” (The Path of Daggers: The Breaking Storm)
3. Elayne's awareness climbed higher with each addition of saidar.... That was not the whole of her awareness, of course. The link had a certain kinship to the Warder bond, just as intense and somehow even more intimate. She knew that a tiny blister from climbing the hill made a spot of pain on Nynaeve's right heel;... Yet inside she was a maelstrom of emotions. Fear, worry, anticipation, irritation, wariness and impatience bounced over each other, and washing through it all sometimes submerging the rest, ripples of warmth and waves of hear that threatened to burst into flame....(The Path of Daggers: The Breaking Storm)
4. A sense of awe came over her....Emotions tumbled in her head, fear and hope and relief-and yes, awe, more than any other-.Nicola frowned from Nynaeve to Elayne. Surely she could not separate out which emotions were which, not when Nynaeve could not tell her own(Lord of Chaos: Dreams and Nightmares.)
5. Linking in brief.
a. The person in charge of the circle draws sadiar through the other person.
b. You have to be willing to enter a circle.
c. You can feel the emotions through the link.
B. A'dam
1. with the a'dam linking them, it was like channeling herself,...(The fires of Heaven: The Threads Burn.)
2. “We are linked...” “We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are. Not a shred. It is my strength and your madness.”(The Fires of Heaven: The Threads Burn.)
3. Only the a'dam let Nynaeve know there was fear in the woman, almost a gibbering, but pushed down to a muted buzz. She wished the thing let her know what Moghedien was thinking...(The Fires of Heaven.)
4. A'dam in brief.
a. The person in charge channels the one power through the other person.
b. It is a one way link.
i. only one person feels emotions through the A'dam.
ii. The one in charge does not have to add their strength if they so choose.
All right here goes (short and sweat):
I believe that because of Nynaeve's block she can not add her strength to that of Moghedien.
I believe that Nynaeve is channeling the power through Moghedien just as if this was a voluntary circle. Or the same process of using an angreal.
Therefore I believe that the a'dam is exactly what Moridin refers to it as; “unvoluntary”. It seems that all descriptions we have of the a'dam relationship is that of drawing the one power through the damane, but that it blocks the transfer of emotions.
Thus the a'dam continually puts the damane on the brink of channeling (without Elayne's side effects.)
Davian93: 2005-04-20
****That's five generations, and assuming 20 years between generations that'd put her at 120 years old. That's a low end estimate, i'd put her closer to 150. Cadsuane comments that Sorelia may be as old as she is, and Cadsuane's pushing 250 years old. Nobody would consider Sorelia a strong channeler in any sense of the word. Nobody would consider her youthful, either. But 120 is 40 years beyond your average lifespan, maybe more considering the stressful environment of the Waste.****
Actually, I believe that Cadsuane is supposed to be 300+ for her age and she thinks Sorilea is around the same. If Cadsuane hadnt sworn the oaths she would probably live to around 700+ being a extremely strong AS and all. So Sorilea, minus the oaths living to around 300 and being ancient looking is plausable for their relative strengths.
Frenzy: 2005-04-20
credit where credit is due. This idea originally started with enigma with this thread:
http://pub14.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm7.showMessage?topicID=376.topic
and continued with poofmagicsedai in this thread:
http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm18.showMessage?topicID=13.topic
clarkkd: 2005-04-21
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn
"Taking a deep breath, Nynaeve untied the flows around Moghedien. Or made her do it; with the a‘dam it was hard to tell which, really."
Nynaeve is using Moghediens(sp) power by using the aspects of linking; drawing through the other person. and then melding the flow.
I would guess that Sul'dam do the same. That they draw the one power through a damane and then channel the power.
It would be like a block: The only time they can channel is if they are complete.
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-21
YES!!! If being a sul'dam is like having a block, then they have to slow. Nynaeve was extremely indignant to Moriaine because Moriaine thought that Nyn was 5 years younger than her actual age. She hadn't broken her block yet, or even awknowleged that she channeled. Blocked, denying channelers devinently slow.
Davian93: 2005-04-21
****YES!!! If being a sul'dam is like having a block, then they have to slow****
Yes, but the sul'dam in Camelyn were described by Nynaeve and Elayne and the other AS there as being on the verge of channeling but not ever channeling on their own. The Damane channel, not the sul'dam. Therefore Sul'dam dont slow.
clarkkd: 2005-04-22
Davian93
2005-04-21
Yes, but the sul'dam in Camelyn were described by Nynaeve and Elayne and the other AS there as being on the verge of channeling but not ever channeling on their own. The Damane channel, not the sul'dam. Therefore Sul'dam dont slow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is the point I was trying to counter.
The Sul'dam do not channel on their own but they DO channell through the damane just like an angreal or link.
The qoutes I provided earlier show that the a'dam and linking are very similiar in that the one in charge pulls through the other person and uses their power as if it where theirs. This would tie in nicely with the sul'dam being on the verge. They only channel when in a circle;
Look at the requirments for a block: The only time you channel is when (in Nynaeve's case) you are angry. This is the same with the a'dam Channeling only occurs when they are complete.
Frenzy: 2005-04-28
Davian: my point is that the Sul'dam have traits and abilities that we KNOW are associated ONLY with active channelers. They have a limited ability to see weaves, and sense other channelers and judge their strength, their abilities can be detected by other channelers, in a limited fashion, and most importantly: they can be held by an a'dam.
If they have all of these traits, then why not the rest? Why not slowing?
Garayur: 2005-04-29
I think you are forgetting that the Sul'dam do not channel throuh the a'dam/damane they tell the damane to do it. if sul'dam knew how to channel through the link then the co-operation of the damane would be un nessesary. knot only that then the suldam would have to learn to channel. through the a'dam. it has never been mentioned that suldam control the flows. the sul'dam simply make the damane to do so. the only person who has knowingly channeled through another channeler using the a'dam is Nynaeve.
Callandor: 2005-04-29
**If they have all of these traits, then why not the rest? Why not slowing?**
Because from all indications we know of a person must first actually channel to slow. Sul'dam have not channeled themselves.
clarkkd: 2005-05-01
I've shown that that the suldam channel through the adam just as if it where a link!
Jalt Varyd: 2005-05-04
**Because from all indications we know of a person must first actually channel to slow. Sul'dam have not channeled themselves.**
From all indications we have, a person also must have actually channeled to see weaves, feel a channeler's strength, etc. - except, of course, for the Sul'dam. Since they have other characteristics that are otherwise associated only with channelers, why might they not slow?
Callandor: 2005-05-05
**From all indications we have, a person also must have actually channeled to see weaves, feel a channeler's strength, etc. - except, of course, for the Sul'dam. Since they have other characteristics that are otherwise associated only with channelers, why might they not slow?**
Because we know for a ~FACT~ that one must channel in order to slow -- shown by Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy. Since sul'dam have never ~actually, physically channeled~ it's not a valid assumption to say that they slow. They're the closest thing to it, but an apple is also close to an orange.
Frenzy: 2005-05-05
Callandor, are you going to make me pull up quotes that show that we know for a ~FACT~ that only channelers have the ability to see weaves, and the ability to sense other channelers and judge their strength, that they can be sensed by other channelers, and that the a'dam only works on them?
Callandor: 2005-05-06
**Callandor, are you going to make me pull up quotes that show that we know for a ~FACT~ that only channelers have the ability to see weaves, and the ability to sense other channelers and judge their strength, that they can be sensed by other channelers, and that the a'dam only works on them?**
Indeed I am. And I will still stay with the uncontradicted fact that one must actively channel before they slow, and the sul'dam have not actively channeled.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-06
Callandor:
I think people have proven that sul'dam can channel to a small degree on their own, even if it is only under certain circumstances and happens very rarely. Being around a channeler for so long probably increases the likelyness that they will have to channeled on their own. When sul'dam and damane are in battle, I don't think the sul'dam tell the damane to attack someone. They just use it as a source. But that being said, I don't think they slow because the source not tied to their body. Rather, I think they're linked to it and never use they're link to the true source. Therefore, I think they channel, but they do not age because it's not tied to their bodies. They just gain the skills of channeling without physically channeling themselves. Nyneave states when talking the sul'dam that it seems that they're just on the verge of channeling and that they can still see all the weaves they used in her presence.
Callandor: 2005-05-06
**I think people have proven that sul'dam can channel to a small degree on their own, even if it is only under certain circumstances and happens very rarely.**
No. They have not proven that.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. ~It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before.~ Well. At least they don't try to attack us with their fists anymore. I think I put them straight on that, at least!" The woman in brown flashed a sullen, angry glare at her, but jerked her eyes away from Alise's firm gaze, her mouth twisting in a sickly grimace. When Alise set somebody straight, they were set very straight indeed. Her hands continued to shift along the tabletop.**
I will still maintain -- it is not proven that sul'dam have actually, physically channeled saidar on their own. Hence, they do not slow.
clarkkd: 2005-05-07
Callandor,2005-05-05:
Because we know for a ~FACT~ that one must channel in order to slow -- shown by Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy. Since sul'dam have never ~actually, physically channeled~ it's not a valid assumption to say that they slow. They're the closest thing to it, but an apple is also close to an orange."
These to did not learn to channel until very late in life, why are we using them to show that slowing occurs or not? Their lives will be prolonged, now that they have started to channel.
Channeling is required to see the weaves, see the aura around another, to judge strength in another, and to slow.
Its all of them not just one.
Callandor, 2005-05-06:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. ~It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before.~ Well. At least they don't try to attack us with their fists anymore. I think I put them straight on that, at least!" The woman in brown flashed a sullen, angry glare at her, but jerked her eyes away from Alise's firm gaze, her mouth twisting in a sickly grimace. When Alise set somebody straight, they were set very straight indeed. Her hands continued to shift along the tabletop.**
This shows what exactly? Well let me tell you, it shows that they don't channel themselves unless they are in a link. The Sul'dam pull the power through the damane and channel the flows themselves.
The training that Renna was trying to give Egwene shows that she was trying to make egwene open her self up to saidar so that she could pull the power through egwene and use the power to deystroy the tree; not to have egwene do it.
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 40 - Damane
"Egwene was shocked to discover an urge to do as Renna commanded. She had not channeled, or even touched saidar, in two days; the desire to fill herself with the One Power made her shiver. "I" - in half a heartbeat she discarded "will not"; the weals that were not there still burned too sharply for her to be quite that foolish - "cannot," she finished instead. "It is too far, and I've never done anything like that before."
Frenzy: 2005-05-08
Callandor:
Here are your quotes. And they didn't cost me a single search, because they're all in my original post. But since you asked so nicely...
Proof that Sul'dam don't need the a'dam to do things only channelers can:
The Great Hunt, Chapter 40: Damane: Renna shook her head almost sadly. “When one has been a sul'dam long enough,” she told Egwene, “one learns to tell many things about damane ***even without the bracelet***, but with the bracelet one can always tell whether a damane has tried to channel.”
The Great Hunt, Chapter 42: Falme: "You still do not know what this is like." Egwene tugged at the collar; pulling did no more good than channeling had. "When Renna is wearing that bracelet, she knows what I am doing with the Power, and what I am not. ***Sometimes she even seems to know when she isn't wearing it; she says sul'dam develop - an affinity, she calls it - after a while.***"
Proof that Sul'dam can see weaves, sense a channeler and her strength:
Winter's Heart, Chapter: 20 - Questions of Treason: Not simply horror at seeing two sul'dam revealed as marath'damane, but her own sudden personal terror. ***Often she thought she could almost see damane's weaves, and she could always sense a damane's presence and know how strong she was. Many sul'dam could; everyone knew it came from long experience at handling the a'dam...Did she almost see the weaves, or did she really see? Sometimes she thought she felt the channeling, too.***
Callandor: 2005-05-08
Yes, all well and good, but they still have not actively channeled (as per the quote I gave). Hence, they do not slow.
Frenzy: 2005-05-08
Yes, they don't actively channel, but they CAN see weaves, they CAN sense other women who can channel and they CAN judge their strength, they CAN be sensed by other women who can channel, and they CAN be held by the a'dam. Those are ALL things that ONLY active channelers can do. If they CAN do all of those things and not actively channel, then why not Slowing as well?
If you say "because they don't actively channel" again, i may smack you.
Hopper: 2005-05-09
Is it possible, and I'll grant that this is a completely unresearched thought, that a continued use of the a'dam, AS A SUL'DAM, has some effect on Slowing? We already know that the Oath Rod does, so why not the a'dam?
Aiel Finn: 2005-05-09
GOOD IDEA!!! Maybe the onesided nature of the link counters some of the anti-aging effect of the power. You age more because you are forcing another's will?
Callandor: 2005-05-09
**If they CAN do all of those things and not actively channel, then why not Slowing as well?
If you say "because they don't actively channel" again, i may smack you.**
I like inviting disaster:
Because they have not actively channeled.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-10
Callandor and Frenzy:
I'm going meet ya'll somewhere in the middle here. What if the sul'dam do slow, but it is not visible until many, many years of being a sul'dam. And since they obviously can't live that long. I do agree with Frenzy that there has to be use of the power for the sul'dam to have all those characteristics. But I also seem to notice that it depends on the amount of the power used. In the case of a sul'dam, it is very little, so it will take longer to make the slowing visible. Hence, my theory. It seems ya'lls arguments are falling on deaf ears at the moment, but I don't really care so argue on.
MatCauthon: 2005-05-10
The sul'dam are linked to the person who actually does the channelling.
Even though they are able to learn themselves, they don't actually channel themselves. I believe actually channelling or at least holding the TP is what causes the slowing, not being connected to someone that is.
Because of this, plus the fact that since there are so many more sul'dam than damane so their not even "completed" or whatever with a damane a ton. That time is split between all of them.
For those two reasons I'd have to say that they don't slow.
I also don't recall reading anything that says the sul'dam look young for their ages or that they live longer than normal people.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-05-10
Frenzy wrote:
"Yes, they don't actively channel, but they CAN see weaves, they CAN sense other women who can channel and they CAN judge their strength, they CAN be sensed by other women who can channel, and they CAN be held by the a'dam. Those are ALL things that ONLY active channelers can do."
I don't agree that only active channelers can do those things. When Siuan is stilled, she can see weaves, she can sense channeling women and IIRC she can judge their strength. A stilled woman can do less things than a sul'dam, because Leane can sense the Damane through the a'dam but not to affect her sensations. But the similarity between the stilled woman and a sul'dam is too tight nevertheless. Unless stilled channelers also do slow, what I doubt...
Sul'dam can be sensed by other women, but NOT like the active channelers. The captured Aes Sedai see crowds of sul'dams, but they are absolutely surprized when Egeanin said that sul'dam can channel. No channeling woman who had seen sul'dam, identified them as channeling women and everybody who discovered the problem did it either by a'dam test, but NEVER by observation neither by analysis of the observed information. The only case I remember about woman sensing sul'dam is Aviendha in Seanchan continent: she shielded the two sul'dam, but she expressed her reserves about what she have seen: she hasn't seen in the sul'dam what she usually has seen around channelers, these sul'dam were an anomaly for her.
The property that sul'dam can be held by a'dam remains the only thing that only active channelers are known to do. However we haven't seen the effect of a'dam on the neck of a stilled woman, and I'm not sure what the effect would be.
Frenzy wrote:
"Sul'dam stand with one foot poised over the brink of active channeling. It is that lack of commitment that keeps them from realizing their full potential for Slowing, and all of the other fringe benefits of channeling. Their limited abilities has nothing to do with their potential strength."
We don't know whether is it a commitment or a lack of training, what keeps them from the state of channelers. If it is a commeitment, they are a sort of weaker wilders, if it's lack of training, they are just advanced teachable still-non-channelers. A sul'dam can have Sharina's potential, but if she is a still-non-channeler, she would be like Sharina before her coming to the Tower, i.e. aging like every non-channeler.
JakOShadows: 2005-05-10
Good find adf, I think this may be a rafo situation. I'll look for some quotes today though, just to make sure.
Frenzy: 2005-05-10
Callandor: ~smack!~ Though, if you're more comfortable backed into the corner of a circular arguement... ~smack smack!!~ ;)
a dragonburned fool: Siuan may not be an active channeler at the time she still has those abilities, but she used to be. She had an active conduit between herself and the True Source. That conduit still existed, it just wasn't active the way it used to be. If it didn't exist, then she never could've been Healed back to active channeler status.
All the quotes indicating that sul'dam develop affinities based on experience imply that these abilities are trained into them by their use of the a'dam. Whether it's the a'dam that brings it out in them, or the damane channeling for them is moot: none of the abilities would manifest if the sul'dam weren't Learners. The only difference between Bethamin and Sharina is that Bethamin has years of contact with the One Power, while Sharina does not.
Jalt Varyd: 2005-05-11
**Because we know for a ~FACT~ that one must channel in order to slow -- shown by Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy.**
No, we don't. They had no significant contact with the power before learning to use it, and are definitely not comparable to the Sul'dam. An a'dam cannot be used by one who does not have the potential or the ability to channel. Using it is the only thing we know of between channeling and not channeling. Damer Flinn and Sharina Malloy could not, as I recall, see weaves until they were taught to channel. Show me a quote proving that they could, and perhaps I'll agree that there's no reason to believe sul'dam slow.
You still won't have proven they don't, though. Using an a'dam is closer to channeling than simply having the potential to learn is.
Callandor: 2005-05-11
**What if the sul'dam do slow, but it is not visible until many, many years of being a sul'dam.**
Doesn't happen as far as we know. If you don't actively channel -- you don't slow. Case in point: Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy. You actively channel, once past a certain age, you begin to slow on an amount based on your strength. Case in point: any active channeler.
**When Siuan is stilled, she can see weaves, she can sense channeling women and IIRC she can judge their strength. A stilled woman can do less things than a sul'dam, because Leane can sense the Damane through the a'dam but not to affect her sensations. But the similarity between the stilled woman and a sul'dam is too tight nevertheless. Unless stilled channelers also do slow, what I doubt...**
I myself am going to want a quote for that, because I was quite sure that RJ cleverly (or annoyingly) ignored showing Siuan or Leane remarking on any weaves or strength while being stilled.
Frenzy: 2005-08-09
Callandor says: Doesn't happen as far as we know. If you don't actively channel -- you don't slow. Case in point: Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy. You actively channel, once past a certain age, you begin to slow on an amount based on your strength. Case in point: any active channeler.
Frenzy responds: Case in point: the Sul'dam. My original theory points out that sul'dam have abilities and attributes that ONLY active channelers have. If they have those abilities and attributes, then why not slowing as well?
Callandor says: I myself am going to want a quote for that, because I was quite sure that RJ cleverly (or annoyingly) ignored showing Siuan or Leane remarking on any weaves or strength while being stilled.
Frenzy responds: you're right, partially.
Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
"Why?" Siuan demanded. "You tell me this thing only works—" "Just put it on, Siuan." Siuan eyed her stubbornly for a moment--Light, but the woman could be obstinate!—before closing the bracelet around her wrist. A look of wonder came onto her face immediately, then her eyes narrowed at Marigan. "She hates us, but I knew that. And there's fear, and.... Shock. Not a glimmer on her face, but she's shocked to her toes. I don't think she believed I could use this thing, either."
"With a sigh, Siuan shook her head. "And I cannot. I should be able to touch the Source through her, isn't that right? Well, I can't. A grunter could climb trees first. I've been stilled, and that is that. How do you get this thing off?" She fumbled at the bracelet. "How do you bloody get it off?"
Callandor: 2005-08-09
**Frenzy responds: Case in point: the Sul'dam. My original theory points out that sul'dam have abilities and attributes that ONLY active channelers have. If they have those abilities and attributes, then why not slowing as well?**
Again, it goes back to the quote you know oh so well in Winter's Heart. Alise asserts that the sul'dam have not channeled. I don't care about brinkers or whatever you wish to extrapolate elsewhere -- we have a quote saying they have not channeled.
Since they have not actively channeled, they are like Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy -- they do not slow.
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-10
I don't think the comparison between Sul'dam and Sharina Maloy is really valid.
Although it is true that both Sharina Maloy, and a Sul'dam are able to learn to channel (that is, they don't have the inborn spark, but can learn), there is a differnece between an experienced Sul'dam, and Sharina.
An experienced Sul'dam knows when a damane is channelling, and maybe even what the damane is doing with the power, even when not linked with the damane. That is, she develops an affinity with channelers.
As far as I know, this is not the case with ALL people who can learn to channel (this affinity over time), only Sul'dam.
The leash causes a "link" between leash holder, and the leashed one. (Nynaeve was able to channel through Moghedien when linked to her. She somehow had control of the link, which does not happen for normal Sul'dam, as far as we know).
When linking, a women opens herself to the source without touching it. (The leash provides the connection without this). I think, over time, the Sul'dam are brought to this point. Open, but not touching. That is, the leash slowly trains them to open to the source. This gives them the affinity experienced by all channelers, and makes them different than the learners who have never had any training (like Sharina Maloy).
Whether sul'dam slow or not is a different matter. I just wanted to point out that experienced sul'dam and untrained learners are NOT the same.
It also wouldn't surprise me if a very experienced sul'dam could control the flows -- although she may not realize what she is doing (sort of like a Wilder). She could just tell herself the damane is very good at anticipating what she wants her to do. No quotes, just speculation.
Frenzy: 2005-08-10
Callandor says: I don't care about brinkers or whatever you wish to extrapolate elsewhere -- we have a quote saying they have not channeled. Since they have not actively channeled, they are like Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy -- they do not slow.
Frenzy replies: Then explain this: A Crown of Swords, Chapter24: The Kin: (Elayne's pov): “Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman ***who can channel*** does it.
Who CAN channel, not who DOES channel.
Besides, you STILL have not explained why sul'dam who do not channel have abilities and attributes associated ONLY with active channelers. As much as I like seeing large replies to my theories, I don't take as much pleasure from it as GLotD does. Take the blinders off and address that part of the theory, or stop repeating yourself and your threadbare argument. It's getting old.
Sul'dam work with the power on a regular basis, and they've manifested abilities associated with those that actively use the power. Elayne, among others, has studied the device and concluded that it forms a link between leashed one and leash holder. The sul'dam must have at least the capacity to channel for the device to work, and a link has nothing to link to if there is no contact with the Source. Yes, Alise says they don't actively channel, I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your claim that only active channelers possess abilities and attributes such as seeing weaves, sensing and being sensed by other channelers, and slowing. And since we've seen sul'dam in the books doing two of these three things, and i extrapolated that they also do the third. I don't understand why I have to spell it out so many times.
Callandor: 2005-08-11
**Although it is true that both Sharina Maloy, and a Sul'dam are able to learn to channel (that is, they don't have the inborn spark, but can learn), there is a differnece between an experienced Sul'dam, and Sharina.
An experienced Sul'dam knows when a damane is channelling, and maybe even what the damane is doing with the power, even when not linked with the damane. That is, she develops an affinity with channelers.**
Yes, yes, yes. That's all well and good, and I've heard it many times before. Bottom line:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before. Well. At least they don't try to attack us with their fists anymore. I think I put them straight on that, at least!" The woman in brown flashed a sullen, angry glare at her, but jerked her eyes away from Alise's firm gaze, her mouth twisting in a sickly grimace. When Alise set somebody straight, they were set very straight indeed. Her hands continued to shift along the tabletop.**
We have people telling us that sul'dam have not channeled yet. Hence, they do not slow.
**When linking, a women opens herself to the source without touching it. (The leash provides the connection without this). I think, over time, the Sul'dam are brought to this point. Open, but not touching. That is, the leash slowly trains them to open to the source. This gives them the affinity experienced by all channelers, and makes them different than the learners who have never had any training (like Sharina Maloy).**
Maybe it does. But the point is they haven't taken that step, and channeled. Without that, they do not slow.
**Whether sul'dam slow or not is a different matter. I just wanted to point out that experienced sul'dam and untrained learners are NOT the same.**
No, they are the same. A learner who has not channeled does not slow. A sul'dam (as far as we know) has not channeled. Hence, they do not slow.
**Frenzy replies: Then explain this: A Crown of Swords, Chapter24: The Kin: (Elayne's pov): “Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends on how strong we are, but when doesn't. Any woman ***who can channel*** does it.
Who CAN channel, not who DOES channel.**
Frenzy, you know this explanation anyway, since we've had this arguement before and you've admitted (very grudgingly) that my stance is still perfectly valid.
Sul'dam do not slow for the same reason Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy and any other potential learner does not slow: they have not yet touched the Source.
Can sul'dam slow? Potentially, yes. Do they slow, just being what they are? No. Not as far as we know, since we know they have not channeled yet.
**Besides, you STILL have not explained why sul'dam who do not channel have abilities and attributes associated ONLY with active channelers. As much as I like seeing large replies to my theories, I don't take as much pleasure from it as GLotD does. Take the blinders off and address that part of the theory, or stop repeating yourself and your threadbare argument. It's getting old.**
Since I haven't addressed it, you don't think it's because I agree with it? Maybe it's as ThunderWalker said (forget if you said this yourself earlier) and the a'dam allows them to be nearly embracing saidar and allowing them to do the abilities we have seen so far.
But the point is they have not channeled yet. Don't talk to me of blinders in a theory that you are pushing, Frenzy. The burden of proof is on you, not me.
**I'm disputing your claim that only active channelers possess abilities and attributes such as seeing weaves, sensing and being sensed by other channelers, and slowing.**
Please quote any of my objections to sul'dam having the abilities they do, beyond slowing. As far as I recall, that is the only point I have been disagreeing with.
**And since we've seen sul'dam in the books doing two of these three things, and i extrapolated that they also do the third. I don't understand why I have to spell it out so many times.**
Because Frenzy, there is book evidence to the contrary. You say that they have these abilities and the books support them. Fine, great. But the books also said they have not channeled, and the books have clearly shown that those that have not channeled do not slow (unless you wish that to be your arguement). Don't try to snap at me because I hold to what the books say, no matter how many times you think I'm splitting hairs.
Anubis: 2005-08-11
**I don't understand why I have to spell it out so many times.**
i can think of a few reasons.
1. This is theoryland.
2. Everyone wants to get their point across, and their point alone.
3. People are narcisistic (sp) idiots.
4. People arent as smart as you think they are, or as you yourself are.
5. You arent as smart as you think you are. (had to add that ;))
6. RJ comes here secretly to forment discord and promote blatantly false theories. (Explain Lanfear is Responsable for Mats luck)
7. Most of the recent theories are on the level of really obvious or blatantly obvious, and the worst are outright stated in the books.
8. Arguing is pointless, you will never convince the happy idiot.
Jalt Varyd: 2005-08-11
Callandor, would you please either give us a quote proving that Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy could see flows, detect channeling, etc. before learning to channel, or stop claiming they are the same as Sul'dam? Find ANY quote where ANY person who has not channeled (besides Sul'dam or someone using a ter'angreal) shows these abilities. You still won't have proven beyond any doubt that Sul'dam do not slow, but you will at least have countered the strongest argument that they do. Simply repeating that they have not channeled does nothing unless you show that slowing is different from detecting weaves.
Find that quote, and I'll agree that Sul'dam probably don't slow. Without it, your argument is empty - you simply state your opinion as fact.
Frenzy: 2005-08-11
Callandor: Since I haven't addressed it, you don't think it's because I agree with it? Maybe it's as ThunderWalker said (forget if you said this yourself earlier) and the a'dam allows them to be nearly embracing saidar and allowing them to do the abilities we have seen so far.
Frenzy: So, if I'm reading that right, you think that it's the a'dam that gives these abilities to the sul'dam. That without the a'dam, they can't see weaves or sense channeling.
Quotes to refute that: TGH Chapter 40 - Damane
"Renna shook her head almost sadly. "When one has been a sul'dam long enough," she told Egwene, "one learns to tell many things about damane even without the bracelet, but with the bracelet one can always tell whether a damane has tried to channel. You must never lie to me, or to any sul'dam, not even by a hair."
And something from your own quote that you may be overlooking:
WH CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before."
If it's the a'dam that's doing it, then how can sul'dam do these things without it? How can Alise sense anything in them?
Callandor: Because Frenzy, there is book evidence to the contrary. You say that they have these abilities and the books support them. Fine, great. But the books also said they have not channeled, and the books have clearly shown that those that have not channeled do not slow
Frenzy: The books also have evidence that refutes that “clearly shown” evidence. I've supplied several quotes that do this. Now the “burden” is on you: are you going to chalk this up to ‘you believe your quotes and I'll believe mine,' or are you going to bend your fool neck they way I bent mine and see that a character's interpretation of ‘facts' can be wrong when we as readers have evidence that contradicts their conclusions?
Anubis...
1. This is theoryland.
Darn tootin'
2. Everyone wants to get their point across, and their point alone.
your point? :p
3. People are narcisistic (sp) idiots.
And I am their queen...
4. People arent as smart as you think they are, or as you yourself are.
No, they're probably smarter (else they wouldn't be at theoryland). I'm not questioning anyone's intelligence here, I'm questioning their logic.
5. You arent as smart as you think you are. (had to add that ;))
No, I'm probably smarter. Doesn't mean I don't flub it on occasion. in spectacular fashion.
6. RJ comes here secretly to forment discord and promote blatantly false theories. (Explain Lanfear is Responsable for Mats luck)
hehehehehe
7. Most of the recent theories are on the level of really obvious or blatantly obvious, and the worst are outright stated in the books.
What do you expect? We've been doing this for over seven years. Hard to find new ground, so we just dissect older stuff to finer and finer degrees. We're on track to split the WoT atom in a few months.
8. Arguing is pointless, you will never convince the happy idiot.
True, but it passes the time. and as much as i want to bang my head (and Callandor's) into a wall, i'm actually enjoying this. i hope you are too, Cal. ;)
ShadowbaneX: 2005-08-11
Yes, the books clearly state that the sul'dam have not channeled and it is shown that those that do not channel do not slow.
However, it has not shown that those that in close contact to the source, ie through the a'dam's link, do not slow. There is nothing to support that.
There is evidence to suggest that this close proximity to the source is sufficient to have some effect on a sul'dam, such as the ability to sense when a damane is channelling, or to see weaves.
The books clearly state that these abilities only develop in those that have channeled.
So we have a paradox. Here we have a group of people that can sense channeling in a damane and see flows, but have not channeled. It seems to me that there is only one solution:
It is not actually touching the source that grants these abilities, but merely having the potentional to channel AND spending a fair amount of time in close contact or proximity to the source as the sul'dam do. If this is correct then it is perfectly plausable to suggest that slowing is also a possible side effect of such proximity.
therobotbadger: 2005-08-11
I can't say whether I'm on the Frenzy side or in camp Callandor on this one. What I can do is dissect the arguments I've seen, which I'm not sure have been gotten across as intended by the authors. (And excuse me if everyone else takes this as obvious; it just didn't seem so to me.)
It appears to me...
Frenzy says:
Sul'dam exhibit several characteristics seen so far only in active channelers, among them seeing weaves and measuring strength. Thus, there is no reason not to speculate another characteristic only seen in active channelers, i.e. slowing. (And the key word in that sentence is speculate, because it does not seem that anyone in this thread is saying sul'dam definitely do slow.)
Callandor says:
Yes, we know sul'dam exhibit x characteristics only seen in active channelers. However, x does not imply y, so there is no reason to speculate that sul'dam slow, at least not without textual basis.
Even if this post doesn't help anyone else, writing it certainly cleared things up for me.
Callandor: 2005-08-12
**Callandor, would you please either give us a quote proving that Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy could see flows, detect channeling, etc. before learning to channel, or stop claiming they are the same as Sul'dam?**
Ok, Jalt, what the heck are you talking about?
1. We know learners that have not channeled yet do not slow. Period. Proof of this is that Damer Flinn and Sharina Maloy appear as old as they are physical (or at least did, whatever you wish to use for semantics). That is my entire point with their reference. Ok? Got it?
2. I gave the quote above, and here it is again:
**TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin
"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before. Well. At least they don't try to attack us with their fists anymore. I think I put them straight on that, at least!" The woman in brown flashed a sullen, angry glare at her, but jerked her eyes away from Alise's firm gaze, her mouth twisting in a sickly grimace. When Alise set somebody straight, they were set very straight indeed. Her hands continued to shift along the tabletop.**
Where it says quite simply that sul'dam have not yet channeled.
3. Put the two together. Sul'dam have not channeled yet, so ---> They do not slow.
**Simply repeating that they have not channeled does nothing unless you show that slowing is different from detecting weaves.**
Slowing is dependant on channeling, else, please explain how Damer Flinn has been slowing for however long it would take for him to look as old as he does, and Sharina Maloy.
Without the sul'dam channeling you cannot say that they have slowed. Other parts of this theory I'm in agreement with, even if I can't explain. But there is a direct quote stating that the sul'dam have not channeled, and we know that slowing requires that you at least first channel before it starts (other part is being past a certain age, but that's hardly important to this compared to the channeling).
I'm sorry, but you stating that my objections do "nothing" and my arguements are "empty" and then, oh you had to go here, and state that I'm showing my "opinion as fact."
Show one quote from the books that you have given here. Frenzy may quite hate that I disagree, but she at least agrees I have factual cause for it.
**Frenzy: So, if I'm reading that right, you think that it's the a'dam that gives these abilities to the sul'dam. That without the a'dam, they can't see weaves or sense channeling.**
I don't know what's causing it. The a'dam is a good suspect as any in my opinion. I am merely saying that I do not doubt that sul'dam have seen what might be weaves (and more than likely are) and establish affinities with other channelers.
But I am also holding to that they have not channeled (at leas the ones that we have seen, if it might not be all of them) and do not slow. How those two mesh together nicely, I haven't figured out yet, since there is book evidence that goes for both sides. Maybe it's just being misleading for a better dramatic punch, or there's something we are missing, but at least you haven't said I'm going on just my opinion.
**If it's the a'dam that's doing it, then how can sul'dam do these things without it? How can Alise sense anything in them?**
I thought it was obvious that it's refering to their potential ability to channel (since they are learners) which any female channeler can sense, if they know about it.
**The books also have evidence that refutes that “clearly shown” evidence. I've supplied several quotes that do this. Now the “burden” is on you: are you going to chalk this up to ‘you believe your quotes and I'll believe mine,' or are you going to bend your fool neck they way I bent mine and see that a character's interpretation of ‘facts' can be wrong when we as readers have evidence that contradicts their conclusions?**
Trust me, Frenzy, if I was going to change my opinion on this issue with the facts we have now, I would've done it earlier.
**True, but it passes the time. and as much as i want to bang my head (and Callandor's) into a wall, i'm actually enjoying this. i hope you are too, Cal. ;)**
I was until Jalt said I was pushing for an empty arguement, and using my opinions as facts.
**However, it has not shown that those that in close contact to the source, ie through the a'dam's link, do not slow. There is nothing to support that.**
Haven't channeled, then they're in the same camp as Flinn and Sharina.
**There is evidence to suggest that this close proximity to the source is sufficient to have some effect on a sul'dam, such as the ability to sense when a damane is channelling, or to see weaves.**
I'd possible agree with that, just not extend it to slowing, since, again, we've seen in the books that if learners haven't channled, they do not slow.
**So we have a paradox. Here we have a group of people that can sense channeling in a damane and see flows, but have not channeled. It seems to me that there is only one solution:
It is not actually touching the source that grants these abilities, but merely having the potentional to channel AND spending a fair amount of time in close contact or proximity to the source as the sul'dam do. If this is correct then it is perfectly plausable to suggest that slowing is also a possible side effect of such proximity.**
Two objections:
1. Going simply off what we know now, I wouldn't follow that solution at all. I believe I've stated my objections enough here ;)
2. It could be that the information is not conclusive. But, as far as we know, it is, so while it's a future possiblity, it can't be applied now.
Anubis: 2005-08-12
As far as im concerned Frenzy rocks because she made me laugh and Callandor is fun to argue with. And to tie this in to the theory somehow so im not just wasting time.... uh.... sul'dan slow but in reverse. Like merlin. HA! Theorize that fools!!! (sorry, its been a rough week... i got my first arrest)
ShadowbaneX: 2005-08-12
**Haven't channeled, then they're in the same camp as Flinn and Sharina.**
No, they're not. Not even close. I said in my reply and for your convience I'll quote it here: "AND spending a fair amount of time in close contact or proximity to the source". Did you just not see this or are you just ignoring any reasonable counter arguements that are contrary to your ideas?
**I'd possible agree with that, just not extend it to slowing, since, again, we've seen in the books that if learners haven't channled, they do not slow.**
Do you have any evidence to back up why you're not willing to except this?
**1. Going simply off what we know now, I wouldn't follow that solution at all. I believe I've stated my objections enough here**
You've stated them so many times despite several counters to your objections that I can only conclude your ultimate goal is to resurrect the Way of the Goat.
**2. It could be that the information is not conclusive. But, as far as we know, it is, so while it's a future possiblity, it can't be applied now. **
What do you mean it can't be applied now? It's either valid or it's not. It can't be unvalid now and then valid later merely because of some information we might get at a future date. Back in the 16th century was Copernicus' theory about the earth spinning around the sun unvalid because everyone else just didn't pay attention? According to what I've presented it could be a valid theory.
Frenzy: 2005-08-12
Robot Badger: your summary of my theory is the kid-gloves version of it. I've been adhering to it since I have no textual proof to call it more than a theory. However, your summation of Callandor's theory is a bit off. He's saying something along the lines of “if the sun rises in the east, and the sky gets brighter, that doesn't necessarily mean it's daytime.”
Callandor said: I gave the quote above, and here it is again .. Where it says quite simply that sul'dam have not yet channeled.
Frenzy replies: but it ALSO says that Alise feels something in them. You said
Callandor says: Slowing is dependant on channeling, else, please explain how Damer Flinn has been slowing for however long it would take for him to look as old as he does, and Sharina Maloy. Without the sul'dam channeling you cannot say that they have slowed. Other parts of this theory I'm in agreement with, even if I can't explain. But there is a direct quote stating that the sul'dam have not channeled, and we know that slowing requires that you at least first channel before it starts (other part is being past a certain age, but that's hardly important to this compared to the channeling).
Frenzy replies: Ok, I've been ignoring it for days now, but it's Melloy, not Maloy.
Second: you're ignoring a very important factor here, Callandor. Sul'dam don't channel, but they ARE touched by the True Source. They work closely with it, and it has changed them, albeit indirectly. Or do you deny that?
Third: we also know that seeing weaves requires that you at least be a channeler. You agree with me that sul'dam have attributes that only channelers have, yet you conveniently cannot explain why. Maybe if you try and explain, it'll make things clearer all-around.
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-12
Ok. Personally, I don't think there is enough information to conclude that Sul'dam eather slow or don't slow. For example, there is no reference to the age of an experienced sul'dam, which would really help.
Regarding Callandor's logic, we have the following truths, that everyone can agree on (I think) and that Callandor uses:
1) People who have channeled "slow".
2) From the Winter's Heart quote "sul'dam have not yet channeled.".
Now the question: Do the above two statements permit the following:
**Put the two together. Sul'dam have not channeled yet, so ---> They do not slow. **
By logic, no, you cannot make that conclusion.
Why? You are saying that X causes Y, and concluding that !X yields !Y. And that, of course, does not follow.
Allow me to use a silly illustration:
a) Everyone who eats chocolate is happy.
b) John has never eaten chocolate.
Conclusion John is not Happy.
The only way that your conclusion could be true is if the first statement was "*Only* people who have channeled slow", and that is what you are trying to prove.
So what we have the following (feel free to add everyone):
First, allow me to call an experience Sul'dam, a Learner who has been "linked" to, and worked with a channeler a long time, a der'sul'dam, since a der'sul'dam will most likely qualify as experienced.
1) Channellers slow.
2) Der'sul'dam can see weaves, sense power being used (glow?) and guage strength, but have never touched the source. (and have a mental block against doing so).
3) A Learner who has never been linked with a chaneller does not slow.
4) Some WoT characters believe strength in the Power gives some indication of how MUCH you will slow. This does not necessarily provide an argument against sul'dam slowing. One can argue that the fact that they become experienced with the power increases their potential, even if they don't use it.
The following could be a good argument against slowing if true:
5?) The amount of power you actually use contributes to slowing. (For example, Sorelea is very old, but has a strength not much more than that of Morgase. Maybe she uses it more.) This would be a good argument against slowing since der'sul'dam do not actively channel
The following could be an argument for slowing:
6?) Power use can sense "potential" strength in a der'sul'dam. The quote "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something" sort of implies a bit of that. And Egwene may have used that "sort of" feeling to figure out that sul'dam were learners. But again, that is not quite enough.
I don't believe there are any quotes that establish at what point, a potential channeler slows (if they do). At least in this theory. We just know the end result. Channelers slow. Do sul'dam? Don't know.
Need more quotes. Too bad they stopped those weekly questions.
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-12
Maybe this can be attacked from a different angle.
Perhaps we should try answering the question "How many sul'dam should there be?"
Assuming:
1) The Seanchan catch ALL those with the spark.
2) Most Learners choose to become sul'dam. (Those of the blood, maybe some others, may choose not to).
3) Damane (channelers) live 8 to 10 times longer than the average non-channeler.
What is the percentage of Learners, verses Sparkers?
I found a quote (from another site):
"Only two to three percent of the population have the ability to learn to channel. Only a small fraction of those will ever channel without training."
Not sure where that is from (BWB?).
The books make it seem that there are 3 to 4 sul'dam per damane. Damane don't retire. Do sul'dam? Say a Sul'dam does not slow at all, and practices her profession until age 60. A damane lives 10 times that long.
Further, say that 1 out of every 40 has the spark. That would make the ration of sul'dam to damane about 4 to 1? That would be consistant with "sul'dam don't slow".
Would RJ take that into account when planning the number of sul'dam vs. damane while writing?
If someone has a quote for the ratio of sparkers vs. learners, or support for the above assumptions...
Callandor: 2005-08-13
**No, they're not. Not even close. I said in my reply and for your convience I'll quote it here: "AND spending a fair amount of time in close contact or proximity to the source". Did you just not see this or are you just ignoring any reasonable counter arguements that are contrary to your ideas?**
No, SBX, I'm not ignoring anything. If I have to keep spelling out my objections, WHICH ARE FACTUAL, I'm simply going to chalk this up you you ignoring what I am saying.
**You've stated them so many times despite several counters to your objections that I can only conclude your ultimate goal is to resurrect the Way of the Goat.**
Please, tell me how it's countered. I'd really love to hear how one version is superior to what the books are telling us sul'dam have not done. I'd really love to hear that, SBX.
**What do you mean it can't be applied now? It's either valid or it's not.**
What I mean is if both camps are being supported by book evidence, one side can't just say "We'll learn more later, so I'm right."
**It can't be unvalid now and then valid later merely because of some information we might get at a future date.**
I would agree. We're basing this off what we know now, and like I have said several times, you cannot simply say because the sul'dam exhibit other features of channelers that they slow, when we have evidence that they have not channeled yet and we know a person must channel before slowing.
But if we get more information later on, and one side is proven wrong, what's that going to do to your statement? We've seen book established facts be turned on their heads before (Healing stilling of course being the biggest one). But in either case, we don't have the evidence now so it's useless speculation anyway.
**Second: you're ignoring a very important factor here, Callandor. Sul'dam don't channel, but they ARE touched by the True Source. They work closely with it, and it has changed them, albeit indirectly. Or do you deny that?**
False, Frenzy. Until you can show where they have channeled before, they have not touched the Source. Until then, the most likely thing is that Alise is sensing their potential to channel.
**Third: we also know that seeing weaves requires that you at least be a channeler. You agree with me that sul'dam have attributes that only channelers have, yet you conveniently cannot explain why. Maybe if you try and explain, it'll make things clearer all-around.**
I will if I post a theory on it. Until then, I'll stick to my objections of your theory, which I continue to explain although they are very simple.
**Why? You are saying that X causes Y, and concluding that !X yields !Y. And that, of course, does not follow.**
Your example is false, ThunderWalker. We know that channeling must be done in order to slow -- it's a requirement (also for being past a certain age, but without channeling, it becomes a moot point anyway). People can be happy or not happy for a variety of reasons, but we know that slowing requires two things:
1. Channeling the One Power.
2. Being 20-25 for females, and 25-30 for males.
Other than that, you're speculating.
**The only way that your conclusion could be true is if the first statement was "*Only* people who have channeled slow", and that is what you are trying to prove.**
Trying to prove? What it's not obvious by Flinn and Sharina?
**I don't believe there are any quotes that establish at what point, a potential channeler slows (if they do). At least in this theory. We just know the end result. Channelers slow. Do sul'dam? Don't know.**
Once again, a vast majority of channelers in the world are learners. All of them, unless they come in contact with a channeler who knows what they are doing and senses (for women) or tests them (for both), they will never know they can learn to channel.
Since we know that around 1% of the population can channel, and a vast majority are learners, and a lot of channelers (until recently) went undiscovered, wouldn't it be very easy to find out who the channelers were if the learners who have never channeled slowed? They'd always look younger even when they were incredibly old. You wouldn't have people like Damer Flinn and Sharina Melloy, because they would not look the way they do (IE: elderly), unless they were incredibly old.
There is a trigger for slowing. One is shown: age. Well, since Flinn and Sharina are far past 20-25, and 25-30, we can say that is not a factor in this. What's the other factor then? Well, what else do all known channelers have in common? They have channeled. It's a requirement.
Now, it might turn out that experienced ones have touched the Source (by whatever means that might be), but even that is just a possibility. However, the ones at least that Alise has seen, have not channeled yet and do not slow.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-08-13
I say that the sul'dam are completely different from Damer Flinn et al by including, in capital letters so it's hard to miss, a statement. You then somehow miss that and say they're the same anyway even though people like Sharina Melloy and Damer Flinn had no experience with the Power save for perhaps Healing. Sul'dam have spent pretty much their entire lives associated with the power, the others have not, how can they be the same? One of your 'factual objections' only seem to work if you discount this 'fact'. I'm not ignoring what you're saying, I just think that, in this case, you are mistaken. We point out holes in your arguement and you ignore them, simply restating your initial arguement as if the gaps we've found have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
**Please, tell me how it's countered.**
We've been doing pretty much nothing but point out holes, suggesting more logical solutions to the problems, things that provide better answers than what you give and you ignore them.
**we know a person must channel before slowing**
no, actually, we don't. It's assumed, mainly by the character's in the books that one must channel to slow. But, RJ has beaten us over the head with the whole truth and perception thing. At the beginning of the books. stilling can't be Healed, flows can't be picked apart, any man that touched saidin was a lost cause and nothing could be done about the Taint. Aes Sedai 'half-truths' These are just misconceptions. They might appear to be 'the truth', but they are not the whole truth. What the characters know to be "the truth" is really just how they perceive things. It might be fully well believed that only those that actively channel slow, however, as others have pointed out now (and I've done it at least twice) there might be other, more logical answers, supported by evidence in the books, and not just characters opinions, that explain that it's not channeling that causes slowing, but just prolongued exposure.
This, right here, is what this entire debate is about. You say that only people that can channel can slow. Others say that it's just exposure that causes it.
Frenzy suggests that sul'dam slow.
You counter with characters saying that only those that can channel slow.
The other side looks at the effects that link has had on the sul'dam and the development of abilities that are usually only manifest in those that have channeled and hypotheses that slowing is the same as sensing the ability in others and seeing weaves, in answer to your counter point.
This is the debate. In all these 70-odd replies the debate hasn't progressed beyond this point. You merely restate your counterpoint. We refine out hypothesis and you restate your counter point again as if it somehow negates this new thought. Either find something that counters this new hypothesis or we're just wasting our time here.
Oh, and:
**What it's not obvious by Flinn and Sharina?**
What's not obvious about Flinn and Sharine is that they haven't spent their entire lives linked with damane.
These two are completely unrelated to the debate at hand. It's 'learners' that have had excessive prolonged exposure to the source, not just 'learners' in general.
Anubis: 2005-08-13
Is there an example of a person who we know has not channeled, or touched the source, a learner, who aged normally, learned to channel, and then slowed?
im thinking sharina, but i dont know how long she has channeled, and how old she is. if anyone could think of an example this would greatly help the theory.
and by the way...
**Conclusion: It isn't beyond the realm of possibility that Sul'dam Slow, and like all of their channeling-related abilities, their Slowing is to a limited degree.**
i dont think this is debatable
Callandor: 2005-08-14
**Is there an example of a person who we know has not channeled, or touched the source, a learner, who aged normally, learned to channel, and then slowed?
im thinking sharina, but i dont know how long she has channeled, and how old she is. if anyone could think of an example this would greatly help the theory.**
The most clear cut examples would be Damer Flinn and Sharina Melloy. We don't "know" for sure if they didn't channel before, but going off that they were normal learners (not subject to whatever is with sul'dam), and by all accounts (Flinn especially) they'd never touched the source before going to where the Towers were (but this is really only vaguely implied, not stated, but again -- c'mon!). They have now channeled and should be subject to slowing. RJ has said this about it:
**Q: Mr. Jordan, I love your books. If a person begins to channel at an old age, eg. Sharina, will she begin to physically look younger when she slows, or will she remain the same and pick up from there?
A: She remains the same. It's not the same as having been stilled or burnt out. She's going to have a very long life, still, just not as a youthful person.**
While not directly stating it, it's hard as heck to miss RJ saying that yes, Sharina will slow now that she has channeled.
**Sul'dam have spent pretty much their entire lives associated with the power, the others have not, how can they be the same?**
Because they have not channeled.
**One of your 'factual objections' only seem to work if you discount this 'fact'.**
No, it doesn't. It works perfectly fine if you accept what the books tell you that sul'dam have not channeled just like Sharina Melloy and Flinn, and every other learner that went undiscovered, and do not slow.
**We've been doing pretty much nothing but point out holes, suggesting more logical solutions to the problems, things that provide better answers than what you give and you ignore them.**
SBX, I have book evidence of my standing. It's factual. It has a basing. I don't know where the heck the disagreement is coming from with this.
**no, actually, we don't. It's assumed, mainly by the character's in the books that one must channel to slow.**
Excuse me, but please explain Flinn and Sharina then.
We have physical examples that cannot be explained away without conceeding that it requires that a person must channel before they slow.
**This, right here, is what this entire debate is about. You say that only people that can channel can slow. Others say that it's just exposure that causes it.**
No, I do not. Simple word change: it's only people that have channeled that slow. Sul'dam's for all intensive purposes can channel -- it's just potentially. By this, I would have no arguement at all to them slowing, if they had channeled. By what we've seen, they haven't.
**In all these 70-odd replies the debate hasn't progressed beyond this point. You merely restate your counterpoint. We refine out hypothesis and you restate your counter point again as if it somehow negates this new thought. Either find something that counters this new hypothesis or we're just wasting our time here.**
Maybe it's because you haven't explained away my objections, that I keep stating them?
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-14
I'm confused, Callandor, do you believe that experienced sul'dam are the same classification as an individual who wears the a'dam bracelet for the first time? And if so, why, considering we know experienced sul'dam, without wearing the bracelet can detect channeling, sense potential, and see weaves, while new sul'dam are unable to do such things typically associated with channeling?
Callandor: 2005-08-14
**I'm confused, Callandor, do you believe that experienced sul'dam are the same classification as an individual who wears the a'dam bracelet for the first time?**
I've been mulling it over, and I still don't really see anything to call them other than "sul'dam." It's probably going to come down to the situation anyway where it's different sul'dam accounts giving both sides as the hindge of the arguement (IE: the ones that reportedly have seen something they would describe as weaves, aren't the same ones that are said to not have channeled yet). So it's probably going to be violent agreement anyway.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-08-14
**No, I do not. Simple word change**
If someone asks me if I can drive I'll reply : 'yeah I can drive' not I have driven."
**Maybe it's because you haven't explained away my objections**
The reason why Flinn or Sharina, et al didn't slow was because THEY WEREN'T LINKED TO DAMANE.
if you don't actually acknowledge this point I'll keep repeating this over and over until you do respond to it. Let's see how YOU like it for a change.
Tamyrlin: 2005-08-14
Regardless of the slowing, Callandor, we know new sul'dam cannot detect channeling, see weaves, other channeling abilities experienced sul'dam appear to have. Why wouldn't you put them into two different groups, as we do with Learners and Sparkers? Obviously, they have different abilities, new vs. experienced.
Anubis: 2005-08-14
You cant put Sul'Dan and Learners in the same category, it just doesnt work. Sul'Dan are unique as far as channeling ability and affects go.
Jalt Varyd: 2005-08-14
I'm not trying to be insulting, Callandor. Perhaps I went a bit to far, there, and I apologize for that. I was just trying to tell you how important I felt that quote was to your case - a quote which you still haven't produced.
We know of only one group that interacts closely with the power, but doesn't actually channel. We do not have direct evidence proving that Sul'dam do or do not slow, so it isn't certain if slowing is caused by channeling, or simply by working closely with the power. Sharina and Flinn do not answer this question because they never worked with the power before learning to channel. I have read your posts carefully, many of them a number of times; unless I am missing something, you never addressed this point.
Repeating an argument that has already been countered does little to help your case. Please, either explain why decades of work with the power could not possibly have affected the Sul'dam or show that working with the power is not required to detect channeling (etc.).
I don't claim it is certain that Sul'dam slow; I don't think anyone is claiming that. I simply don't understand why you are so absolutely certain that they don't.
Callandor: 2005-08-14
To show what I mean: I fully accept that sul'dam have the capacity to slow, as do all people that can channel. However, I do not accept that people who have not channeled, will slow. Subtle difference (and don't take it to mean that I was snapping at you, SBX), but an important one to distinguish.
**The reason why Flinn or Sharina, et al didn't slow was because THEY WEREN'T LINKED TO DAMANE.**
So, by this stance, anyone linked to a damane has slowed. Right?
Proven incorrect by the sul'dam Alise has seen, since they have not channled, and channeling is an inherent part of slowing.
**Why wouldn't you put them into two different groups, as we do with Learners and Sparkers?**
Because people seem to be saying (at least SBX here) that if someone is attached to the a'dam once, they will do all these things, and slow.
As we speak, I'm rapidly leaning in the direction that we've simply been taking different sul'dam and trying to categorize everyone by them, but that still doesn't change my objections to earlier statements.
If it's because the sul'dam Alise has seen simply aren't "experienced enough" with the a'dam to have somehow channeled, ok, fine. Then don't say the difference between the sul'dam and Flinn and Sharina is that Flinn and Sharina didn't use an a'dam (and as Weird Harold pointed out on the message boards about this topic, it seems strange that the Seanchan wouldn't pick their most experienced sul'dam for the Forerunners).
Renna of course wasn't one of the ones captured and seen by Alise, nor was Bethamin. So, it might be seen that those two were "more experienced" with the a'dam than Marli (one seen by Alise), and those two might slow. However, with Marli, I would still hold that she at least does not slow, which still brings up the reason why she doesn't, if it's a possiblity that the others might (again, the nice point out by Weird Harold about the Forerunners).
Callandor: 2005-08-15
**You cant put Sul'Dan and Learners in the same category, it just doesnt work. Sul'Dan are unique as far as channeling ability and affects go.**
Unique in channeling ability? All sul'dam are learners. What the heck makes them unique from learners, in channeling ability?
**I'm not trying to be insulting, Callandor. Perhaps I went a bit to far, there, and I apologize for that. I was just trying to tell you how important I felt that quote was to your case - a quote which you still haven't produced.**
1. Apology accepted -- just be careful for future instances (trust me you're not the first).
2. Which quote? The one that shows you clearly do not understand my arguement, or the one which I have provided at least 3 times if not upwards of 5 or 6, and parts of it are indeed quoted in the original submission of the theory?
**We know of only one group that interacts closely with the power, but doesn't actually channel. We do not have direct evidence proving that Sul'dam do or do not slow, so it isn't certain if slowing is caused by channeling, or simply by working closely with the power.**
Again, proof goes to that it's actually channeling that causes people to slow.
**Repeating an argument that has already been countered does little to help your case.**
Again, where is it countered? You propose that maybe it's close workings with the One Power that allows sul'dam to somehow slow, when evidence shows that actually channeling allows people to then channel. How on earth is my objection countered? Where the heck have you proven anything about your statements?
** Please, either explain why decades of work with the power could not possibly have affected the Sul'dam or show that working with the power is not required to detect channeling (etc.).**
Burden of proof is on the theory, not the detractors. It's Frenzy's purpose or her supports to provide proof of my objections.
**I simply don't understand why you are so absolutely certain that they don't.**
I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT!
How many times must I continually state that it is 100% within my agreement that sul'dam slow!.
My stance is that they do not slow unless they've channeled.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-08-15
**So, by this stance, anyone linked to a damane has slowed. Right?**
yes. In part. This theory says that it is PROLONGED exposure to the source via a link to a damane will cause slowing in a sul'dam.
**Proven incorrect by the sul'dam Alise has seen, since they have not channled, and channeling is an inherent part of slowing.**
Circular Logic Callandor. You're going to have to come up with something better than that.
**Because people seem to be saying (at least SBX here) that if someone is attached to the a'dam once, they will do all these things, and slow.**
You have to be intentionally misreading and misinterpreting my arguements so that you can argue against what isn't even there. Point out to me where I said that a sul'dam only had to be linked to a damane once to start to slow. It's not just anyone that's been attached once to an a'dam, it's sul'dam that have been doing this for decades.
Renna states that it is only experienced sul'dam that can sense when a damane is holding the source and that is one of the first 'symptoms', as it were, of prolonged exposure to the source. Slowing would only occur after years, if not decades, of being linked to a sul'dam. In tFoH while in Rand's whirlwind tour of Seanchan the sul'dam there claims she'd know if Aviendha had done more than sheild the damane (ie the flow of air to prevent them from moving). ie "I have borne the bracelet long, and I could tell if the marath'damane had done more than block Jini." Even the Seanchan claim that the more experienced the sul'dam, the more they can tell about the damane and those that can channel.
**My stance is that they do not slow unless they've channeled.**
Because that might not be the case. The current topic of debate: might prolonged exposure to the source, via a link to a damane, cause a sul'dam to slow. Merely stating that it doesn't happen because they don't channel isn't helpful to the debate.
Frenzy: 2005-08-15
Frenzy said: **Second: you're ignoring a very important factor here, Callandor. Sul'dam don't channel, but they ARE touched by the True Source. They work closely with it, and it has changed them, albeit indirectly. Or do you deny that?**
Callandor replied: False, Frenzy. Until you can show where they have channeled before, they have not touched the Source. Until then, the most likely thing is that Alise is sensing their potential to channel.
Frenzy counters: I said “are touched,” not “have touched.” There's a big difference there. Allow me to explain the difference with this baseball bat. If you reach out and place your head on it, you are touching the bat. If I take it and smack you upside the head with it, you are touched by it. One is voluntary, the other isn't. One is active, the other is passive. :)
Or if that example is too graphic, how about a placenta? The baby is nourished by the mother's blood, but the mother's blood and the baby's blood never come in direct contact. They never touch. The placenta extracts the nourishment from the mother's blood, and then the baby's blood picks it up from there. The baby gets the good stuff, but never touches the mother's blood. The effects are transferred without direct contact. Sul'dam get the effects of being a channeler without directly touching the True Source.
Callandor said: Excuse me, but please explain Flinn and Sharina then. We have physical examples that cannot be explained away without conceeding that it requires that a person must channel before they slow.
Frenzy replies: You're comparing apples to oranges here. Flinn & Sharina have had NO EXPOSURE to the True Source in ANY way, so yes of course they aged normally. They couldn't see flows, they can't sense other channelers, et al. Sul'dam HAVE had exposure to the True Source through their use of the a'dam and being linked to damane. Over time, they develop what they call an affinity, which means they CAN see flows and they CAN sense other channelers (even if they conveniently explain away these obviously-channeler only traits as the perks of being sul'dam). It's that chronic exposure that separates sul'dam from older Learners. THAT's what you're ignoring, and THAT's what explains away Sharina & Damer as examples.
Anubis: 2005-08-15
Here is what SBX is trying to say. Sul'Dam are like half channelers. They can see flows, cant manipulate them. Sense power, cant embrace it. They stand on the edge of embracing, 24/7 (or 24/10 as the case may be). Sul'Dam have abilities, and are affected in ways, that only people who channel are. Therefore, it is not unreasonable in the slightest, to say that Sul'Dam would slow to a limited degree. I mean come on, they already do everything else to a limited degree. Is slowing that much of a streach?
mako0424: 2005-08-15
I throw my support towards SBX, and i am of the belief that Sul'Dam slow, but to a very limited extent.
I think that Morgase Trakand would be a much more useful example of channeling and slowing than Sharina and Damer. We know for a fact that she can hardly channel if at all, she merely has the ability, but her exposure is non-existent, but we also know that Morgase has Slowed, but very little, she looks to be about 30 when she is really like 40's.
Now i think the most important point to consider would if the experienced sul'dam can see weaves, and know things about damane while new sul'dam must acquire this skill along with experience, it would lend credence to the belief that maybe even if their not channeling by then, they are obviously gaining some inherent abilities that come with channeling. We also know for a fact that Slowing is an inherent side-effect of channeling and that even Morgase, who doesnt really channel at all, Slows, then it would seem deductive that sul'dam, particularly the more experienced sul'dam begin to Slow to a very minimal degree, but Slow they must.
Another small point in favor of them Slowing, even though it has no logical or factual background, we know that there are tons of sul'dam, more so then their are damane. We know Slowing would mean the sul'dam would become more prolific due to their increased age, and this is just a side note though.
ShadowbaneX: 2005-08-15
Heh. I now have an interpreter and support. The interpreter is good cause I usually don't even know what I'm saying half the time. It's good to know that at last someone is able to figure it out. As for the support, well, does that mean it's time to make a faction? :p
mako: there's a more simple solution. Those with the spark are rare. There were only a couple of girls from the Two Rivers with the Spark, Egwene & Nynaeve. However there were, what, a dozen or more that we saw with Verin & Alanna in Caemlyn that could also channel, but they just didn't have the spark. Only a fraction of the population can channel, but only a much smaller fraction of those that can channel are born with the spark. This is the reason why there are so many more sul'dam than damane.
Anubis: 2005-08-16
**This is the reason why there are so many more sul'dam than damane.**
Of course, unless sul'dam slow exactly as much as damane, this would mean that it is slightly offset by the fact that damane live longer.
Dorindha: 2005-08-16
I've followed this for a bit, and have argued it on the message boards, but I just thought I'd throw in the way I understand this. I agree with Frenzy and SBX in general, but in my mind, the way I see it is that a sul'dam has at some point been used almost like an angreal for the damane - they have probably had the OP flow through them at some point. I think everyone would agree that the a'dam creates a form of circle (I believe this is the "involuntary rings" Moridin mentions), which although led (in circle terms) by the damane, she is controlled on a different level by the sul'dam.
Thus, the sul'dam has had her body used as a conduit for the power, even if she is unaware of it, and this is what stimulates the learner capacity, enabling a more experienced sul'dam to see weaves and feel what is happening. As soon as this kind of use occurs, the sul'dam has channelled, and slowing is triggered.
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-16
Regarding the a'dam.
(This thread is so long that just about everything has already been said :).
Anyway, to repeat: Nynaeve was able to direct the flows through Moghedien. She was unable to channel (because she was not angry) but she could "embrace" through Moghedien, through the link of the a'dam. She, herself, did not touch the source.
So, we have proof, that the leash holder can direct the flows (channel) without actually touching the source herself (no glow).
Over time, a sul'dam is able to see the weaves, etc. It is quite possible that she can direct the flows as well, and would convince herself the the damane is simply antisipating what she wants. Or, she chould believe that an experienced sul'dam *should* be able to direct the flows. No POV's for this.
I think that experienced sul'dam are, in a way, similar to Wilders. Over time, they "learn" to channel, but they develop a "block" against channeling itself.
Since they technically CAN channel, they can be held by the leash. They have passed that threshold for where the leash can hold them.
br>Callandor maintains that one must physically touch the Source in order to Slow. (So that experienced sul'dam who have inadvertantly touched the Source will slow) There actually isn't proof of this, either -- but would explain why we might see slowing sul'dam, no matter which theory you subscribe to.
All we know for certain, is that learners that have *never used the leash* do not slow. That fact that we don't have examples of people slowing who have not touched the source, does not make that impossible.
The theory that sul'dam slow, is just that, a theory. Since there are no POV's that say "So and so was the most experienced (der') sul'dam we have ever had. It is to bad she died at the ripe old age of 86)." Or, that experienced sul'dam live long healthy lives, we need other evidence.
Any theories on what the mechanism is for slowing? For example, if someone is severed, do they continue to slow? They have touched the source, after all. Unfortunately, they don't usually live long enough to determine this. All we know is that when severed, if you were bound by the oath rod, you will regain the appearence you would have had if you had never been bound (your slowing without oath rod appearance).
We know that Morgase slows, but she can barely touch the source. I believe she has a POV where she says she can barely sense it, and can rarely touch it.
Maybe the source seeps in and prolongs life, even if you are not actively channeling -- in which case sul'dam would be affected, as soon as they reached that threshold (maybe at about the time they learn to see weaves) and begin to slow. Since active channeling develops your ability (betters the connection to the source), slowing would be minimal in this case. Or, maybe physically touching the source, just once, provides the bridge to the source for slowing.
ThunderWalker: 2005-08-16
Oh, one more thing. Channeling is addictive. We have many, many quotes for that.
When a Sul'dam is connected to a damane via the a'dam, she says she is "complete". In fact, we have POV's where the sul'dam say they are "complete" when connected, and disappointed when it is not there turn to be complete. Not being connected to a damane, is alike to a Channeler being in a Stedding. There is a "loss". The are "incomplete".
This implies addiction to the a'dam, but but more likely, an addiction to the Source, via the damane's channeling (since the a'dam is a form of circle, they are participating in the channeling, whether they direct the flows or not).
If they are addicted to the Source (without channeling) maybe they are also influenced by it, ie. Seeing weaves, sensing strength, and maybe even slowing.
Frenzy: 2005-08-22
i boiled all of this down and made it into a faction. Join up, if you are so inclined:
http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=138
Sul'dam Slow