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anfear Was Artificially Enhanced

by SDog: 2003-05-27 | 6.5 out of 10 (24 votes)

Previous Categories: What Happened to Lanfear/Cyndane?

In Winter's Heart, we learn that Cyndane is most likely Lanfear, transmigrated into a new body after dying (Ch. 35, “With the Choedan Kal”). We also note from this chapter, and PoD (Ch. 12, “New Alliances”)and WH (Ch. 13, “Wonderful News”) that Cyndane is stronger in the OP than Graendal, but not as strong as Lanfear once was. Since we are nearly certain that Cyndane's body contains Lanfear's soul, what could have caused this decrease in channeling strength?

In multiple places throughout the books (e.g., tGH, Ch. 16, “In the Mirror of Darkness” & TDR, Ch. 4 , “Shadows Sleeping”), Lanfear is described as the most beautiful woman ever seen by the subject of the POV. Even Egwene thinks Lanfear is so beautiful that it makes her feel small and ugly (TDR, Ch. 25, “Questions”). The only other person in the books who elicits anything close to this sort of reaction from people is Galad, whose appearance makes women blush and have trouble speaking. But even Galad is not so beautiful as to force men to admit it; most of the men seem to be in disbelief that Galad gets such attention (TDR, Ch. 24, “Scouting and Discoveries”).

So, how likely is it that the most beautiful woman in history is also the strongest female channeler in history (perhaps one of the strongest channelers of all)? And why did this most powerful soul suddenly experience a drop in strength upon being transmigrated? This theory attempts to answer both of these questions.

We have already established Lanfear's power drop, and her place as perhaps the most beautiful woman in the world. The key to this entire theory lies in just one of Cyndane's statements in WH. When facing Alivia, Cyndane thinks,

“[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. That was impossible! No woman could be stronger! She must have an angreal, too.” -WH, Ch. 35, “With the Choedan Kal” (Emphases from text)

Note that Cyndane does not appear to be merely arrogant about her former abilities; she actually believes that she used to be as strong as it was possible for a woman to be. If it were arrogance, she might be shocked temporarily, much as Moridin is shocked when considering Aviendha's ability to unweave a Gateway (tPoD, Ch. 2, “Unweaving”). But in this case, Cyndane immediately thinks that Alivia must have an angreal—which she does—not that these new, child-like channelers were full of surprises. The idea that a “new” generation of channelers might produce someone naturally stronger than her never crosses her mind. Why is this? Why is she so certain that she had previously reached the maximum ability for female channeers?

If we look at the text for references about Lanfear, we find evidence that she was extremely hungry for power (of any sort). Rand (speaking as Lews Therin) even remarks as such in one of their meetings. Lanfear's biggest ambition is to be the best, most powerful person in the world, even to the extent of challenging the Dark One and Creator (see more conversations with Rand). A person with this sort of motivation and ambition will naturally seek out ways to increase his or her power and influence. I believe it is entirely possible that Lanfear artificially became both the most powerful female channeler, and the most beautiful woman in the world.

As noted above, Lanfear believed that no woman could be stronger than her (and correctly deduced that Alivia had an angreal). But at the same time, something occurred that decreased her strength in the One Power when she was transmigrated. This could be because her old body was artificially enhanced, so her ability to channel is back to its normal state.

How would she have accomplished such an artificial enhancement? I can think of only a few ways.

1. The Eel'finn

We know the Eel'finn grant “wishes” to those entering their domain. Whether one must come through the Red Door ter'angreal, or the Tower of Ghenji is uncertain. We do know that Lanfear could not have traveled to their realm through the Red Door, because she was able to pass through it again with Moiraine. Perhaps, though, she had her wishes granted when visiting via a different mechanism. Truth be told, we have no idea how many Red Doors there were in the Age of Legends, nor if there were other ways to reach the realm of the Ael'finn and Eel'finn. Similarly, we know Lanfear was a researcher—could she have learned of yet another way to reach that realm?

2. Science

As I just noted, Lanfear (as Mierin) was a scientist in the Age of Legends. When she found the Dark One's prison, her team was searching for a new type of power, able to be shared by men and women. It stands to reason, then, that she had researched the One Power extensively, perhaps even exhaustively. It is possible that she discovered (or stumbled onto) a way to maximize her One Power abilities. Given her desire for exclusive power, it also makes sense that she would not share this discovery with her fellow Aes Sedai.

3. The Dark One

We really do not know the extent of the Dark One's power, so this is very speculative. It may be that Lanfear joined the Shadow and struck a bargain with the Dark One to enhance her body. This is certainly the least likely of the mechanisms, but it should be considered.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-05-28

I think you have something here, which you know since I joined your faction. The doorway is a good possibility since Lanfear could have passed through the doorway that Rand used in Tear (the wish doorway.) They seem a little less "evil" than those that Mat encounters in Rhuidean. The Finns speak the Old Tongue; it is likely that these doorways were used in the AoL. I think the artificial enhancement makes more sense than the finns taking away her power, unless a person believes that Lanfear did not die. They could make the case that the finns somehow gave her a new body and clamped her power. But as you have pointed out, what are the chances that the most powerful female channeler is the most beautiful human being ever to walk the earth. These days we would appreciate the beauty, but we would all agree that face lifts, boob jobs, and botox got the person to that state. Maybe Lanfear did it to impress Lews Therin. Maybe, before her enhancements, Ilyena was stronger and more beautiful than Lanfear. What do you think?

2

Callandor: 2003-05-28

I personally really like this theory. It makes a lot of sense and solves how Lanfear got such a big ego.

3

rubbernilly: 2003-05-28

I agree with this theory, except for a nitpick detail:

We cannot rule out that Mierin went through the Rhuidean doorway. You mention that she was able to go through with Moiraine as proof. I say that we've seen no one else attempt to *pull* someone else through a doorway, so we don't know how that would work. The simple fact that Moiraine had not been through that doorway - and was now falling through and had a death grip on Lanfear - was enough to pull Lanfear along as Moiraine went through.

Now, my pet theory is that she went through to see the wish-Finn in the AoL... probably after LTT turned her down and broke off their affair. He was her conduit to power, so she sought her own path after that.

With this theory comes the implicit plausibility that I described above -vis a vis the ability to be pulled through a gate you have already visited - in order to explain what happened in Cairhien.

One piece of evidence you missed was that Mierin hid her ability almost constantly during the AoL. Why? Because, as you say, she found a way to maximize her potential and she either:

a) didn't want people to know that she had done it (because she had done something wrong in the getting of it), or

b) she didn't want to share the knowledge of how to do it.

Either way, it is another pointer to her unnatural "re-build" that you speak of.

I'm with you, brother.

BTW, Anybody else see the whole Adam/Lilith/Eve story going on with LTT/Mierin/Ilyena?

4

The Leveler: 2003-05-28

But that might just be that Lanfear was in the White Tower, and knew how strong the "Aes Sedai" were, and since she was strong for a woman in the AoL, she could just think that since these women are this weak, no one in this generation could be nearly as strong as she is/was. And it has Cyndane thinking that the Eelfinn burned some of the ability to channel out of her.

5

rubbernilly: 2003-05-29

The Leveler -

I agree that one possible interpretation of Cyndane's use of "impossible" is that she was incredulous at thethought that no one of this age could be as strong as she had been, for the simple reason that they were of this age and this age produced generally weaker channelers.

I agree that that is possible, but I don't think it is supported from the tenor of that passage (as SDog thoroughly examined above).

Further, regarding your last sentence:

And it has Cyndane thinking that the Eelfinn burned some of the ability to channel out of her.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, since i'm not sure what the antecedent for your 'it' pronoun is. If 'it' refers to the text/passage, then Cyndane thinks nothing of the kind; no where is there mention of the Finn burning out part of her ability. No where. If there were, this whole discussion would be moot, solved in the text. In fact, no where in the WoT series is there mention of a 'partial' severing for us to think of it as a possibility.

If by 'it' you mean your theory, that your theory has her thinking that she had part of her ability burned out by the Finn, then you should explain this more, as I do not see the logical necessity of taking the leap from what is written to how you interpret it.

6

Callandor: 2003-05-29

Thats not really so acurate. Lanfear met (almost killed) Egwene at the docks and she could get a feel for how strong she was for sure, even though she was still way weaker but strong for anybody else at the Tower (except close friends of course ;-)). And Moggy met (repeatedly) Nynaeve, and I would think that something like that might want to be passed along even IF the Forsaken hate each other so much.

7

Dorindha: 2003-05-29

While I like the theory, I do have a little problem...

We know Alivia is very strong, stronger than Nynaeve, who is herself an equal to the weaker forsaken women. I don't think that there can be an enormous gap of strength between Moghedian and Lanfear, and so Nynaeve cannot be very far behind Lanfear.

“[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. That was impossible! No woman could be stronger! She must have an angreal, too.” -WH, Ch. 35, “With the Choedan Kal” It is the "too" at the end of this quote that got me thinking. It seems to be that Lanfear has worked out that not only has Alivia got an angreal, but that she is stronger "unassisted" than Lanfear was. Alivia is presumably not artificially enhanced, so it shows that while her strength is unusual, and certainly not something that Lanfear had come across before, there is not necessarily a cap on strength, that can lead inevitably to the assumption that Lanfear is artificially enhanced.

This doesn't contradict the theory, as it is possible, that due to artificial enhancement or whatever, Lanfear believed she was as strong as it is possible for a woman to be, but it does make me a little unsure.

8

Rand-althor: 2003-05-29

I agree with this. Unless there is some kind of pointless connection between beauty and power in the OP, then there is no real likely way that she has both. Then again, maybe she was the most powerful in the AOL, and used the power to do a complete makeover of herself, but then again, if there was a way to either be more beautiful, or at least look more beautiful (other than disguising yourself) then you would think it would be a third trick that wilders came to the tower with, like compulsion(I think i have that spelled wrong) and eavesdropping, so I am of the opinion that it was the finns as well. Or passably she went to the truth telling finns, and they told her that noboby would be stronger than her, and now that she has died and been reincarnated, that truth has been completely fulfilled, because after all, she is not lanfear anymore.

9

Callandor: 2003-05-29

Actually Lanfear does use a type of illusion, but to make herself look younger. In TSR when the Stone is about to be attacked by Trollocs, she shows Rand her **true self**. Rand remarks that she became, if possible, more beautiful and more mature but not old.

So there is a something there.

10

Tyr: 2003-05-29

Perhaps the ",too" in Cyndane's sentence meant she "too" had an angreal, just like Lanfear might of. Maybe Lanfear had some hidden angreal.

11

rubbernilly: 2003-05-30

Dorindha,

I disagree. I use the same passage to justify the opposite of what you are saying.

If Cyndane knew that as Lanfear she could cast the maximum a woman could unaided, and now she senses Alivia holding more than that amount, she would rightly assume that the ex-damane was using an angreal.

After all, were Lanfear's abilities truly maxed out, she was still able to use an angreal at the docks in Cairhien, thus bringing her channeling ability even higher.

Therefore it makes sense that she *knows* there could be no woman more powerful than she had been, and finding one with that sort of power, she settles on an angreal as the reason.

There are two ways to *know* that you are as powerful as a woman can be:

1) You are made/changed that way

2) You are told

I suppose that there could be a combination of the two, where you are made quite powerful and told (as mentioned above) that no one would be more powerful than you while you live.

I don't buy that she was just simply told, as that does not solve the companion question of why Lanfear's power was reduced in her re-incarnation as Cyndane. Nor is it very powerful of an event.

Just my opinion, of course.

12

rubbernilly: 2003-05-30

By the way, I think the way that we will find this out is by some of LTT's memories/attitudes coming out in Rand (as they did before when he receives the envoy of peace from Sammael, and Rand starts spouting crimes Sammael was guilty of that only LTT had knowledge of, or when he exclaims that he would throw {Ishamael?} in the Can Breat).

He'll come face to face with Cyndane, and that will be enough to crack the shell again, and give LTT voice. When that happens, we'll find out more about their relationship, he fall to the Dark, and perhaps her 'rebuild.'

13

scion2: 2003-05-30

Great idea. But I don't think that Lanfaer has any special knowledge to enhance her powers or she'd be just as powerful in her new body. I must then be a wish, the Dark One or some form of AoL science.

14

Callandor: 2003-05-30

Lanfear was most likely strong enough to go about without an angreal, and the dock fight against Rand really eliminates the possiblity of another angreal (Dai shan would go crazy then :-P). If Lanfear had another angreal, including the one Moiraine placed, Rand wouldve most likely been killed in a second with all her power.

Cyndane could possibly carry around an angreal now to be closer to her level of power that she had while she was Lanfear.

15

Callandor: 2003-05-30

I think Lanfear thought she was as powerful as a women could get by herself. The angreal amplifies her strength, but that doesnt mean that she couldnt use one. She was just topped out by herself, but could be surpassed, even by herself, with an angreal or sa'angreal.

16

Tyr: 2003-05-31

If Lanfear was so madly in love with LTT then wouldn't she of told him? And after Ilyena came into LTT's life, perhaps wouldn't she have used that as a way to lull LTT into loving her again? And if LTT was just a conduit of power for her to use , why would she of helped rand in this age, when he could barely channel? And if Lanfear was sush an egotistical , power monger, then would she have proudly shown her immense power, not hide it? Why wouldn't she abuse it?

17

Callandor: 2003-05-31

One thing to go killing everyone around you (Cairhien docks) and another to use your powers and knowledge secretivly (like Forsaken are supposed to do). And Lanfear remarks in TSR that LTT was **always too sure** of himself.

As for why help Rand when hes weak... wants to rule the world? Crazy? Insanly driven by passion? Take your pick.

18

SDog: 2003-06-04

Hi everyone! Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

I think the biggest possible flaw in this theory is that none of the Forsaken mention Lanfear's power ability. If it was something granted by the DO, it seems they would know about it. However, if it was attained another way, she might have kept it a secret to maintain competitive advantage. Imagine the surprise on another channelers face when Lanfear revealed just how powerful she was!

I believe the "too" at the end of her quote implies that Alivia must be strong, but have an angreal, as well. Cyndane is thinking, "she must have an angreal in addition to being very strong." Other lines of thinking that Cyndane also has an angreal are plausible, but I'm not sure I'd let my Mindtrapped lackey have one of those. =)

Anyway, if you're interested, this theory has a thread on the main message boards (you'll have to look a little to find it, as it hasn't been discussed too recently).

19

rubbernilly: 2003-06-04

Up to now, there hasn't been a reason for a Forsaken to comment on Lanfear's power.

Perhaps they do know that her power was artificially increased, but after 4000 years... heck, that's just Lanfear. If it is true that they know that Lanfear had her power increased, then when someone puts together that Cyndane is Lanfear we might get a comment like, "I always thought that getting your special gift gave you too large of an ego, Lanfear. I like you better this way, with less power. Pray I do not Sever you right here and leave you with even less power!"

Or... they might not know. After all, she did hide her ability to channel constantly during the AoL.

20

Callandor: 2003-06-04

Dont get too far ahead SDog. The Forsaken do mention Lanfears ability in an unusal way. TFOH, Prolouge, The First Sparks Fall, page 33:

***Is he really so strong?* Rahvin asked quietly. *This Rand al Thor. COuld he have overwhelmed you, face-to-face?* Not that HE HIMSELF could not, if it came to it, OR SAMMAEL, though Graendal would likely link with Lanfear if either of the men tried. For that matter , both women were probably filled to bursting with the Power right that moment,ready to strike out at the slightest suspicion of either man. Or of each other. But this farmboy. An untrained sheperd! Untrained unless Asmodean was trying.** (POV of Rahvin and caps added by me)

As you can see, Rahvin is sure that he can overpower Lanfear, and even puts Sammael in the same pool with him.

21

spearmaiden: 2003-07-09

Where does it say that Mierin kept her strength in the power masked? Is that in the BWB or actually in the books? I don't doubt that she did, but it is VERY interesting and I must have missed it, so I was just wondering how we know that.

And by the way, I LOVE this theory!

22

Callandor: 2003-07-09

When Lanfear is going around in the Tower as Else Grinwall in TDR she would have had to mask her ability to seem totally like a servent or not so powerful a channeler, and as Kiellie in the Waste, if she didnt mask her ability totally she wouldve been caught by Moiraine and Egwene and Avi and many more channelers.

23

rubbernilly: 2003-07-10

I think Moiraine explains it to Rand at one point when she is talking about Lanfear, too. She says something like Lanfear was strong, perhaps as strong as a woman could be, perhaps a match for LTT himself, though she had managed a way to hide her ability and strength from everyone.

I don't have a premier account. Anyone with access to the searchable database want to do me a favor and look this up?

24

Zader: 2004-07-01

I think most have hit on the right idea. Lanfear was enhanced. She always wore a braclet which was an angreal. Moi grabbed braclet away and they both fell in the doorway. When Lanfear came back she no longer had the angreal, no longer as strong, though still very strong in the power. Also this was the second time she had bested Rand. She also bested or at least equalled him in the Stone of Tear when the Trollocs attacked.

25

Davian93: 2004-07-04

****She always wore a braclet which was an angreal. Moi grabbed braclet away and they both fell in the doorway. When Lanfear came back she no longer had the angreal, no longer as strong, though still very strong in the power. Also this was the second time she had bested Rand. She also bested or at least equalled him in the Stone of Tear when the Trollocs attacked. ****

No, that bracelet was from the stash of angreal brought out of Rhuidean in the wagons with the redstone doorway. Moiraine placed it there on purpose.

"Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe. " -FoH, Ch. 52

As for Lanfear overpowering Rand in Tear. First of all, Lanfear is nearly as strong as LTT and Ishy, the two most powerful channelers during the AOL. Rand wasnt yet at full strength and had no idea what he was doing. So it was easy for Lanfear to overcome Rand.

26

Zader: 2004-07-06

Davian93.

No, that bracelet was from the stash of angreal brought out of Rhuidean in the wagons with the redstone doorway. Moiraine placed it there on purpose.

Quote from Moiraines POV. “unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him.”

So it would seem to be one powerful angreal.

Quote from Lanfear/Cyndane in WH. “she was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.She must have an angreal too.”

This gives us more information, if we dig a little deeper.LF/Cyn does not know Alivia's wearing an angreal, she surmises she is wearing one. This tells us that if you don't already know someone's strength in the power, and they have an angreal this adds to their strength, without you knowing. Ie someone may not be as strong as you but with an angreal they are stronger if you measure yourself against them. (I know these statements are obvious, but only obvious if you know people have angreals) IMO It appears you have no way of knowing if some one has an angeal or not unless you know their strength and have something to compare it with. ie suddenly more powerful.

“She must have an angreal too” Is this referring to Lanfear before the Finns; LF/Cyn, or both. If LF/Cyn then she is even weaker than we thought. If Lanfear prior to Finns, obviously a theory I subscribe to, this could explain the drop in power. Ie no longer had that angreal.

Also why put the angreal there for Lanfear to find. It increased Lanfear's power considerably, making her victory more likely. Nothing that happened on the wharf indicated a need for it.Moiraine was holding it when they fell in to the doorway

Maybe it was to use as payment to the Finns.

27

Callandor: 2004-07-07

**Quote from Moiraines POV. “unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him.”

So it would seem to be one powerful angreal.**

Not really. Rand would be crushed by Lanfear, if Rand did not have an angreal.

Angreals, even moderate ones (and weak ones), can me a person like Elayne, be able to overpower Nynaeve (the amber turtle is remarked on being able to do just this).

**Also why put the angreal there for Lanfear to find. It increased Lanfear's power considerably, making her victory more likely. Nothing that happened on the wharf indicated a need for it.Moiraine was holding it when they fell in to the doorway**

Umm... the rings in Rhuidean showed that unless the angreal was there, to lure Lanfear to the doorway so Moiraine could pounce on her and take her through the doorway, Rand would either died or Lews Therin would take over. That's a great reason in my mind.

28

Davian93: 2004-07-07

****Also why put the angreal there for Lanfear to find. It increased Lanfear's power considerably, making her victory more likely. Nothing that happened on the wharf indicated a need for it.Moiraine was holding it when they fell in to the doorway****

Good question. I have no idea why Moiraine put the angreal there. Maybe she saw it was neccessary for her to succeed somehow. Afterall, she did have access to multiple futures via the rings. All I know is that Moiraine deliberately placed the angreal there and Lanfear used it against Rand (who had his own and matched her). You take away the two angreal and Lanfear and Rand are still fairly evenly matched. Although Rand is marginally stronger since he thinks to himself that he could kill her but not capture her which would be more difficult.

29

Anubis: 2004-07-08

sigh....

Too=

In addition; also: He's coming along too.

More than enough; excessively: She worries too much.

To a regrettable degree: My error was all too apparent.

Very; extremely; immensely: He's only too willing to be of service.

Informal. Indeed; so: You will too do it!

so. the sentance could be reworded... she must have an angreal AS WELL. or ALSO. meaning IN ADDITION to being insanely powerfull.

kinda sad that i had to go look up too to prove that you are wrong...

30

talera: 2004-07-09

One simple explanation that seems to have been overlooked, is the possibility that Lanfear has her own angreal.

Whenever Lanfear appears, she is wearing her customary garb; a dress of white, belted in silver. All her jewellery is silver.

We've had ample evidence of personal angreals, with Nynaeve's bracelet-and-rings, her other jewellery, and Cadsuane's hair ornaments. Who is to say Lanfear's belt or her jewellery are not angreals?

31

SDog: 2005-06-23

Well, that could be Talera, but I'm not sure how it plays into this. Cyndane wouldn't think it was impossible for Alivia to be so strong if it was just a matter of angreal. Instead, she would just drop the whole "impossible" part.

With regard to "too", I still say Cyndane probably doesn't have an angreal. There's no way to know for sure, but her quote, plus the fact that she's mindtrapped, make it seem unlkely.

Moreover, there's no evidence in the short battle with Graendal v. Moghedien and Cyndane that Cyndane had any tools of her own.

32

free will: 2005-06-23

I agree with rubbernilly that Mierin may have when through the Rhuidean doorway in the AoL, in fact you are supposed to negotiate a price with the Finns, and I think Lanfear was brought in as property, that Lanfear got no wishes and was traded by Moiraine for Moiraine's price for Moiraine's wishes. I go farther than rubbernilly because I think that Moiraine wished to be born into Alivia's body, the strongest female channeler that can be born and that Mierin wished to be made into the strongest female channeler that can be made. Whether Alivia or Lanfear was stronger I'm not sure.

I'm a bit shocked that solid evidence in favor of this theory seems to have been over-looked. I stole this quote from Zader, “she was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.She must have an angreal too.” If you notice that she was held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, that's rare. That's so unusual in and of itself that it screams out to me that she was brought through the doors a second time to have been held by both groups. So if she had been to that world a previous time, modification becomes very plausible. Zader concludes that "if you don't already know someone's strength in the power, and they have an angreal this adds to their strength, without you knowing" but I disagree that the quote implies any such thing. Women can tell how strong other women are (unless the other women masks) even before the other women have come into their strength, it is naturally palpable to other women naturally. Strength in the power for women is sensible, just as the amount of OP held is sensible. The "too" is just "in addition" and not I believe "in addition to mine". It's like she's first shocked at how much OP is held, second she therefore checks for strength next and gets shocked beyond belief, and thrid she is snaped back to reality by realizing that there is also an angrael involved to get that much OP. It's reasonable to not pay attention to little leagers, and then if someone has enough OP to be a threat it's sensible to.

Zader asks about the angrael, and surmises that it's payment, I think the angreal is payment, as is Lanfear herself, both to the Finn are objects carried through, by Moiraine. Moiraine needed high value gifts to offer for her own wishes. She planned the whole thing through IMO, from the placement of the doorway, the angrael, everything. Even down to which wishes to ask for. RJ has mentioned that Finn wishes can't affect things that aren't you, but if you brought "property" through then that might change that "rule", afterall Moiraine must have had reasons to wait until then to go through the doorway, she could have gone earlier, but then not been able to affect Lanfear. I'm going to post my own theory about another part of the quote that I think is misread by most people. Note that Cyndane uses the third person and calls herself "her" instead of "me", do we know what Cyndane means in the Old Tongue, ... anyone?

33

Anubis: 2005-06-24

**Anubis: Alivia is stronger then lanfear WAS

Actually, are you completely certain? If Moiraine and Alivia are the same person, then Alivia was in Finnland, there is a pronoun at the end of the quote that is interpreted as being about Cyndane (but most people would say "me" not "her") but it could be comparing Moiraine to Alivia and simply saying that Alivia is stronger.**

Yes I'm completely certain. I'm going to ignore your supposition that Moiraine is Alivia and that Alivia was in Finnland because they have absolutely nothing to do with my point.

“[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. That was impossible! No woman could be stronger! She must have an angreal, too.” -WH, Ch. 35, “With the Choedan Kal”

Its pretty clear. Assuming that Cyndane is Lanfear (and that one is pretty obvious), then this would mean that Alivia is stronger then Lanfear had been prior to being forced through the doorway by Moiraine. In addition to this strength, Alivia also possessed an Angreal.

** (but most people would say "me" not "her")**

Well lets try it out. [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held me. We switch from referring to ones self in the third person, to referring to ones self in the first person, midsentance. Who do you know that talks like that?

34

Yaga Shura: 2005-06-24

"do we know what Cyndane means in the Old Tongue, ... anyone? "

Last Chance. It's given in TPoD ch12, Graendal POV.

35

SDog: 2005-06-24

I'm a bit shocked that solid evidence in favor of this theory seems to have been over-looked. I stole this quote from Zader, “she was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.She must have an angreal too.” If you notice that she was held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, that's rare. That's so unusual in and of itself that it screams out to me that she was brought through the doors a second time to have been held by both groups. So if she had been to that world a previous time, modification becomes very plausible.

Well, as much as I'd like to have certain evidence that she had been to the Finns before, this is hardly strong. There are many other factors that could account for her different treatment. She's one of the Forsaken, she was actively channeling when she fell through, she destroyed the doorway on the way in, she came in with Moiraine, etc.

It's certainly suspicious that she was held by both species (as it were), but I'm not sure it's "solid" evidence that she had been there before.

36

free will: 2005-06-24

Well lets try it out. [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held me.

That's backwards of how I meant it, the question was whether could she have meant "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held [Alivia]", which would imply that Cyndane knows that Alivia was involved with the Finn, maybe explaining the particular anomisty that others were referring to. If Cyndane had said "me" instead of "her" this possibility would have been ruled out, but she didn't. Though I agree it she probably wouldn't have said me even if that's what she meant since she was already thinking about herself in the third person.

37

SDog: 2005-06-24

"[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held [Alivia]", which would imply that Cyndane knows that Alivia was involved with the Finn, maybe explaining the particular anomisty that others were referring to."

In the context, I'm certain she is referring to herself being held by the *Finns. The grammar certainly implies that (it would be pretty poor otherwise). Moreover, we have obvious and direct evidence that Cyndane was held, and that she is now weaker.

We have no such evidence for Alivia.

Cyndane definitely meant that Alivia was stronger than Lanfear WAS, precisely because she had an angreal.

38

Anubis: 2005-06-24

**That's backwards of how I meant it, the question was whether could she have meant "[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held [Alivia]"**

So what your trying to say is that some Sul'Dan took Alivia through a doorway that is in Seanchan that we haven't heard about? Or maybe after Rand freed her she quickly ran to the doorway in Tear? While being closely watched by Nynaeve and Cadsuane. Now, how would Cyndane know about this? And when was she held? As far as we know she was a Dammae for her entire life until being freed by Rand.

39

Anubis: 2005-06-25

**Zader asks about the angrael, and surmises that it's payment, I think the angreal is payment, as is Lanfear herself, both to the Finn are objects carried through, by Moiraine. Moiraine needed high value gifts to offer for her own wishes.**

Maybe maybe not. It is completely unclear what the Finns would consider to be "valuable". They essentially let Matt get his three wishes for free. They had to know he would survive the hanging, otherwise he wouldnt fulfill the prophecies that they gave him. I think Finns would consider memories and experiances to be much more valuable then slaves and Angreal.

40

Anubis: 2005-06-25

**Cyndane definitely meant that Alivia was stronger than Lanfear WAS, precisely because she had an angreal.**

If your trying to state that Alivia was stronger then Lanfear because she possessed an Angreal then you are wrong. Im not even going to provide evidence because I already have.

41

free will: 2005-06-25

SDog: Cyndane definitely meant that Alivia was stronger than Lanfear WAS, precisely because she had an angreal.

That is not definite. Women can tell how strong another woman will be without her even holding the OP. Will be, not even what they are now. I already described my hypothesis, specifically that low power women are ignored, and Alivia makes Cyndane care and so Cyndane looks at Alivia's power, is shocked out of her mind, but the fact that in addition Alivia must also be holding an agrael brings her back to the present. In my mind Cyndane uses the fact that Alivia has an angreal to ignore the cognative dissonance caused by Alivia's raw strength. Cyndane doesn't want to consider Alivia's natural strength and focuses on the angreal as a way to continue thinking of the strong woman as an ignorant child.

Anubis: So what your trying to say is that some Sul'Dan took Alivia through a doorway that is in Seanchan that we haven't heard about? Or maybe after Rand freed her she quickly ran to the doorway in Tear? While being closely watched by Nynaeve and Cadsuane. Now, how would Cyndane know about this? And when was she held?

There are many theories, but I had never seriously considered any of those. First off, I'm not sure that the Tower of Genjie stays put, it could be like the Eye of the World. Secondly Alivia might not be telling the truth about her life/past, and even if she thinks she's telling the truth, she might not remember prior to being held by the Finn, especially if that was part of her wishes. Alivia could be Moiraine, and so the time being held by the Finns could be the same time as when Cyndane was there. Which would explain why Cyndane knows about it.

I think Finns would consider memories and experiances to be much more valuable then slaves and Angreal.

Cyndane might have tricked or cheated the Finns last time she was there. They might appreciate it. And if Cyndane hadn't been there before, then she'd be chock full of memories. Besides, my point wasn't that Moiraine would reason this out consciously the same way that you and I are right now. My point is that if she needed payment to get the wishes she wanted, then she could look at the futures and see that taking Lanfear through was the way to come out as an Alivia with the capability of helping Rand. The why might have escaped her, but she could have known the what and/or how.

42

MatCauthon: 2005-06-25

**This gives us more information, if we dig a little deeper.LF/Cyn does not know Alivia's wearing an angreal, she surmises she is wearing one. This tells us that if you don't already know someone's strength in the power, and they have an angreal this adds to their strength, without you knowing. Ie someone may not be as strong as you but with an angreal they are stronger if you measure yourself against them. (I know these statements are obvious, but only obvious if you know people have angreals) IMO It appears you have no way of knowing if some one has an angeal or not unless you know their strength and have something to compare it with. ie suddenly more powerful.**

I don't think that quote shows that people can sense the added amount one is able to hold while using an angreal. I think she was just lucky in guessing that she had one unless Alivia was holding the power at that time. It was also said how strong Alivia is in the power several times from other people before Alivia even got ahold of an angrael.

I don't remember any other times that it was suggested that people could sense the added strength from an angreal. I do think there was at least 1 person who's POV said something to the effect that if they were crossed by someone they would be shocked because he/she had an angreal that the other person didn't know about. Its been awhile since I read the books so I don't remember for certain but I think that it was Graendal after she obtained the ring angreal from Illian.

Also, we never see other peoples' POV's stated that so-and-so seemed stronger while holding an angreal unless they were actually holding the power.

43

MatCauthon: 2005-06-25

**Cyndane definitely meant that Alivia was stronger than Lanfear WAS, precisely because she had an angreal. **

Again, as I said in my other post, you can't sense the increase from an angrael unless the person is holding the power at the time and holding more than they normally could. Also, she if she thought it was JUST from an angreal, she probably wouldn't even have thought twice about it except to wonder how to get the angreal or something since thats what angreal do.

44

Anubis: 2005-06-26

**First off, I'm not sure that the Tower of Genjie stays put, it could be like the Eye of the World. Secondly Alivia might not be telling the truth about her life/past, and even if she thinks she's telling the truth, she might not remember prior to being held by the Finn, especially if that was part of her wishes.**

Ok, so the tower of Genji, which has been in the same exact place everytime it has been seen, magicly moves around. And why would Alivia lie? In order to make Rand trust her completely all she would need to do would be to prove she was Moiraine. Dont see that happening.

45

Anubis: 2005-06-26

**Cyndane might have tricked or cheated the Finns last time she was there. They might appreciate it. And if Cyndane hadn't been there before, then she'd be chock full of memories.**

A more likely story considering Lanfears emotional state at the time would be that she did something to piss them off.

46

Anubis: 2005-06-26

**I do think there was at least 1 person who's POV said something to the effect that if they were crossed by someone they would be shocked because he/she had an angreal that the other person didn't know about.**

That was Grendal. What she means is that if someone like Moghedian thought she could take Gerendal, then Moghedian would be in for a little suprise.

47

Callandor: 2005-06-27

**First off, I'm not sure that the Tower of Genjie stays put, it could be like the Eye of the World.**

The Eye of the World is a part of or works off the principles of tel'aran'rhiod. This is how it is found using need (just like the Wise Ones do it), and how only one person can find it once (can't find the same object with the same need more than once -- Nynaeve and Elayne when looking for the Bowl of the Winds). The only reason Moiraine broke this, is because of another part of tel'aran'rhiod that RJ clarified.

RJ said that time in tel'aran'rhiod is at a random rate. For person A in tel'aran'rhiod, it moves faster than the real world; for person B it moves slower. But if person A and person B are in the same group -- it moves at the same time. This is also Nynaeve and Elayne searched together -- they were in the same group.

Moiraine did not need to find the Eye -- she already "used" her need in finding it before. But what she did was use the need of Rand and co. into getting to the Eye of the World. All through the last 1/3rd of The Eye of the World, Moiraine keeps pounding into Rand and co.'s heads that it is their need -- not her's. She was simply apart of the group that needed to get to the Eye of the World.

The Tower of Ghenjei on the other hand, has a true physical location in the Real World (as Rand and Mat glimpsed at a distance, and Bayle Doman says he went to up close), as well as a reflection in tel'aran'rhiod that Perrin visited.

It's quite permanent in it's location from what we know.

48

free will: 2005-06-27

It's quite permanent in it's location from what we know.

And don't we also know that it can be entered from T'A'R? And that even normal people can sometimes enter T'A'R breifly, from anywhere?

49

: 2005-06-27

Lanfear has both Beauty and Power. If both were given by the Eel'finn, and both were taken away, there would be no need for Lanfear to be Transmigrated. Her new appearance could be the way she originally looked. I think this may have been stated in this thread already.

The question I really have is: If Lanfear was artificially enhanced, *when* did it happen? And why doesn't anyone mention it (Lews Therin, or fellow Forsaken).

Since Rand (as Lews Therin) recognized Lanfear in her "beautiful" persona, one could assume that either 1) Lanfear looks the same as Mierin did. Or 2) Lews Therin simply knew both versions of her, and never feels any reason to bring it up in his/Rand's POV. Does someone have a description of what Mierin looked like? Was it in any way close to what she looked like when removing the MOM, the more mature though beautiful version of Lanfear?

Since one can mask part of ones power, it would be dificult to use that as an indication of when Lanfear's power ability increased. Appearance would be an easier marker.

We know that an angreal allows someone to access more Power than they are naturally able to draw. Would it be possible for a ter'angreal to increase someones inate ability? An internal booster rather than external power wielding tool. Just speculating that maybe her belt (or some other jewelry) could have been an inate ability enhancer, which she lost. Since woman can sense others inate ability, maybe they would just see the enhanced ability.

Another article of jewelry could have been a ter'angreal to change her appearance (a MOM without need for her to generate it). Since this would be static, all she would need to do is create a second MOM make that appearance younger.

Or if the enhancements are not artifact based, maybe Lanfear already had her wishes, and Moiraine asked for Lanfear's enhancements (i.e. she withed to be Lanfear's equal), and one of the conditions that wish, was that Lanfear would be set free, and she trapped.

Not sure how Moridin got her mindtrapped if that was the case. The mindtrap seems to be a compelling argument for Transmigration.

50

Tamyrlin: 2005-06-27

Free Will said, "And don't we also know that it can be entered from T'A'R? And that even normal people can sometimes enter T'A'R breifly, from anywhere?"

Yes, the Tower is reflected in T'A'R. But it's location in T'A'R is permanent, just like the Stone of Tear, or any other permanent object reflected in T'A'R.

51

Callandor: 2005-06-28

**And don't we also know that it can be entered from T'A'R? And that even normal people can sometimes enter T'A'R breifly, from anywhere?**

Doesn't mean that because people can go into tel'aran'rhiod, and move to the Tower of Ghenjei that the Tower can itself change location -- as you said it could before.

52

SDog: 2005-06-28

Anubis wrote:

"**Cyndane definitely meant that Alivia was stronger than Lanfear WAS, precisely because she had an angreal.**

If your trying to state that Alivia was stronger then Lanfear because she possessed an Angreal then you are wrong. Im not even going to provide evidence because I already have. "


How could I be wrong about this? It's clear from Cyndane's statement. She says (to paraphrase), "It's impossible that Alivia could be stronger than I used to be. Therefore, Alivia must have an angreal."

I don't understand any alternate reading of this. She senses how much saidar Alivia is holding, and realizes that it is more than Lanfear could have held. Since she believes she was as strong as a woman could be, her only option is that Alivia has an angreal.

The question is whether Lanfear is correct in saying that "no woman could be stronger."

53

SDog: 2005-06-28

That is not definite. Women can tell how strong another woman will be without her even holding the OP. Will be, not even what they are now.

Again, we don't know if Cyndane was close enough to sense potential. From what the book says, I think we can only conclude that she was sensing how much saidar Alivia held. She says nothing about potential.

I already described my hypothesis, specifically that low power women are ignored, and Alivia makes Cyndane care and so Cyndane looks at Alivia's power, is shocked out of her mind, but the fact that in addition Alivia must also be holding an agrael brings her back to the present. In my mind Cyndane uses the fact that Alivia has an angreal to ignore the cognative dissonance caused by Alivia's raw strength. Cyndane doesn't want to consider Alivia's natural strength and focuses on the angreal as a way to continue thinking of the strong woman as an ignorant child. First off, isn't this rather speculative? Second, look at the italicized part of your quote. Lanfear had no way of knowing Alivia had an angreal. She only guessed it because of Alivia's strength. Are you suggesting that Lanfear knew about it, or that she simply made it up to account for the strength and was actually correct?

I don't know. My theory is pretty speculative, too, but you are trying to read something into Cyndane's thoughts that just isn't apparent. I understand your hypothesis about the cognitive dissonance, but I need to see more evidence before I accept it as a counterargument to my theory.

54

SDog: 2005-06-28

Lanfear has both Beauty and Power. If both were given by the Eel'finn, and both were taken away, there would be no need for Lanfear to be Transmigrated. Her new appearance could be the way she originally looked. I think this may have been stated in this thread already.

Sure there would be a need, if she died and the DO wanted her back. The question of her appearance is really moot in discussion of transmigration. But transmigration does explain the decrease in power, because OP strength is based on the soul (at least in part). For example, we have no evidence that Osan'gar and Aran'gar had different strengths.

The question I really have is: If Lanfear was artificially enhanced, *when* did it happen? And why doesn't anyone mention it (Lews Therin, or fellow Forsaken).

You raise some important points. How did Lanfear manage to hide her enhancements, or otherwise why did no one notice them? I don't have enough information to answer that question, unfortunately. We do know she could mask her ability, and have some hints that did indeed do this. But why enhance your appearance if no one was supposed to notice? One option is that she did both, but only shared her enhanced appearance. That might be a sneaky thing to do; it would offer a red herring to anyone suspicious of whatever activity she used for enhancement. The other option is that she did all of it before the met LTT and the Forsaken. We just don't have a timeline for that, though there is some indication that LTT and Mierin were young lovers. Hmm...interesting thought...maybe Mierin was actually considerably older than LTT, but duped him into thinking she was also young. Quite speculative.

55

free will: 2005-06-28

Me: I already described my hypothesis, specifically that low power women are ignored, and Alivia makes Cyndane care and so Cyndane looks at Alivia's power, is shocked out of her mind, but the fact that in addition Alivia must also be holding an agrael brings her back to the present. In my mind Cyndane uses the fact that Alivia has an angreal to ignore the cognative dissonance caused by Alivia's raw strength. Cyndane doesn't want to consider Alivia's natural strength and focuses on the angreal as a way to continue thinking of the strong woman as an ignorant child.

SDog: First off, isn't this rather speculative?

Parts of it, basically the why parts. But the my assumption that it was emotional and the habitual patterns of Lanfear and her concerns are consistent with the rest of the book. She is dismissive of modern Aes Sedai like most of the Chosen. She ignores weak channelers as non threats. She has an emotional response to Alivia, that was because of the OP being held, that caused her to consider the woman's strength and we know that women can do that. This distrubed her more which is the evidence of the enhanced Lanfear theory, then she focuses on the angrael which wraps it up. The woman was powerful enough to pay attention to. The woman had natural strength, the woman had an angrael. Those are all things we know that Cyndane can tell from looking. The inferane that she was bothered by the natural strength is based on me not assuming that Cyndane is a moron. I could be wrong about that, so I admit the evidence isn't 100 percent.

Second, look at the italicized part of your quote. Lanfear had no way of knowing Alivia had an angreal. She only guessed it because of Alivia's strength.

There are two pieces of information you can tell about a woman by looking. The first is how powerful her maximum power is. The second is how much of the One Power she is holding at that moment. If the OP is higher than the maximum strength then you can infer an angrael or sa'angrael. Lanfear could have looked at only the OP to determine an angrael but since she *can* tell stength in the power just by looking she wouldn't be certain unless she looked and since she seemed emphatic, she looked for strength. She inferred angrael from strength being lower than OP held. She can sense both. When you say strength I'm conscerned that you might mean OP held or maximum lifetime strength.


Are you suggesting that Lanfear knew about it, or that she simply made it up to account for the strength and was actually correct?

Neither, I'm saying that if Lanfear sees a strength 10 person holding 30 units of power that unless that person is in the process of melting the person has an angrael. Women can tell the amount of OP held as well as maximum lifetime strength of another woman.

56

free will: 2005-06-28

SDog: Again, we don't know if Cyndane was close enough to sense potential. From what the book says, I think we can only conclude that she was sensing how much saidar Alivia held. She says nothing about potential. <

SDog, when someone says "stronger" they don't mean holding more of the one power. Someone isn't stronger than you because they have embraced and you haven't, they just have more of the OP held than you do. If Cyndane thought that Alivia just had more of the OP than her then she'd says "She has more of the OP than me", which isn't what she said. Your interpretation seems forced and artificial. If you had evidence that there was a range for this ability to sense strength and that Alivia was beyond that range, then I'd understand your reluctance.

57

Narianna: 2005-06-29

there is a quote in the book FoH as amemeory of LTT when looking at lanfear rand suddenly has a memory of this woman as a young girl in his arms both learning the power.

this quote shows that LTT and mierin knew each other from childhood probably.

58

Anubis: 2005-06-29

**How could I be wrong about this? It's clear from Cyndane's statement. She says (to paraphrase), "It's impossible that Alivia could be stronger than I used to be. Therefore, Alivia must have an angreal." **

No, no NO.

"She must have an angreal too."

too means in addition to.

therefore there are two possibilities.

1. Cyndane had an angreal and Alivia has one as well. (unlikely considering what we know about the chosen and the statment about strength)

2. In addition to being incredibly strong, Alivia also had an angreal.

Theres no Therefore she must have an angreal. It is simply not written that way.

59

SDog: 2005-06-30

Yes, it is written that way. Look:

"Alivia is incredibly strong. She is stronger than I was before the Ael'finn and Eel'finn held me. That is impossible--no woman can be stronger than that. She MUST have an angreal, too!"

Theres no Therefore she must have an angreal. It is simply not written that way.

What? You already said this in your post (your point #2). Alivia has an angreal in addition to being incredibly strong.

How does Cyndane figure this out? By reasoning that no one could possibly be stronger than she was as Lanfear. (Therefore she must have an angreal.)

Why else would she say what she says when she says it? Right on the heels of "that was impossible," she says, "she must have an angreal, too."

Cyndane is first surprised because she notices that Alivia is incredibly strong (this is right before the paragraph I quoted in my theory). She is shocked at Alivia's strength.

Then Alivia channels at her, and only then does Cyndane get her second shock--Alivia is channeling more than Lanfear could have.

So she is first shocked that Alivia is strong, but doesn't make note that Alivia is stronger than her (because Alivia is not stronger than her). When Alivia channels more than Lanfear could have, only then does Alivia realize that she must have an angreal.

She firmly believes that no woman could be stronger than she was as Lanfear. So much so that she actually stops and thinks she has an angreal.

60

Anubis: 2005-07-06

Alrite buddy lets try this out.

She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal.

There. That means that Lanfear was stronger then Alivia. Lanfear is stating that the reason Alivia is stronger then Lanfera is because she has an angreal. However it is not written that way. Robert Jordan throws in the word too. Why would he do this if he wanted us to believe that the reason for Alivia being stronger then Lanfear was the angreal? No, the quote is:

“she was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal too."

Cyndane talks about Alivias strength in the One Power. Strength in the one power has nothing to do with angreal and sa'angreal. When Rand used the huge statues, his strength in the One Power did not increase one micron. Same goes with any other channeler. Women can tell eachothers strength (unless its being hidden) AND they can tell seperatly, the ammount of power a woman is holding. You seem to think it is like men, where the only way to tell how strong a man is is to have him embrace as much saidin as he can. Im sorry but you are wrong.

And heres my two cents about why everyone believes Lanfear is so strong. Its 2 part. 1. She was the strongest female channeler. 2. She is INCREDIBLY nice with it. She beats Alivia even though Alivia is much stronger, has ter angreal, and has angreal. Lanfear has mad skills with the power. And please for the love of god keep skills, strength, and ammount of power held seperate.

61

ranman38: 2005-07-11

*what are the chances that the most powerful female channeler is the most beautiful human being ever to walk the earth. These days we would appreciate the beauty, but we would all agree that face lifts, boob jobs, and botox got the person to that state.*

Well our current culture is replete with examples of the "best" also being the most "beautiful" It clearly is possible tha Lanfear was NATURALLY the most beautiful AND most powerful. Somebody has to be! :)

62

SDog: 2005-07-12

Anubis, Cyndane throws in the "too" because she has already acknowledged that Alivia is incredibly strong. Read the text again--she is shocked twice. (1) "OMG, she's very strong!", and (2) "Holy %$#!, she's stronger than I was before!"

Why would she be shocked twice if she only felt her strength once? It's only when Alivia actually channels at her that she gets her second shock.

So she thinks, "She must have an angreal, too." The "too" means, "in addition to being incredibly strong".

There is no way Cyndane is thinking that Alivia is naturally stronger than Lanfear was. How do I know this? Because in the very same passage, she thinks that such a thing is impossible. According to Cyndane's line of thinking, the only way Alivia could be stronger than Lanfear was if she has an angreal--in addition to being immensely strong. Otherwise, it would be impossible for Alivia to be so strong.

Ranman, I agree that there are a lot of people who are both good looking and the best at what they do. But Lanfear's beauty goes beyond "good looking" or "attractive". She is described multiple times as the most beautiful woman in the world, or in history, or whatever. She also believes she is the strongest woman in the world.

I don't think you find that kind of superlative pairing very often, if ever.

63

ranman38: 2005-07-13

In Fantasy books it is quite common! :) I am not strongly on one side or the other. Just making a point. Take a poll on who is the most beautiful woman in the world and you'll get lots of candidates.

64

JakOShadows: 2005-07-14

I do have to agree with the fact that Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was. The way that passage is worded it looks like they were two different thoughts and sensing abilities. I just don't think there is enough evidence to prove she is enhanced. But whatever happened, it would account for her decrease in power very nicely. But the only thing we're going on here is her attitude, and we know even when she probably wasn't that powerful she was always ambitious and thought a lot of herself. So there is not much to go on. When Moraine comes back, it will help explain a lot of what happened to Lanfear. So we will have to rafo.

65

CyberFade: 2005-08-09

Read the passage before the off-cited quote. Cynfear's sneaky fireball is busted up by one of the ter'angreal that Alivia is wearing--this is shocking, something new to a know-it-all and egotistical AoLer. This is my explanation to the "she must have an angreal too" portion [too = has an angreal in addition to this crazy web busting up ter'angreal she has].

I'll also find it very unlikely that Cynf can rate Alivia's potential from 100 paces--Graendal needed to be a lot closer and latter day female channelers need to be practically within touching distance. I suspect Cynf is going by how much Saider Alivia is holding/using.

For the theory...not too much opinion. Entirely possible if not really dramatically pleasing. I do think that the lower OP potential of Cynf is caused at some point between doorway and getting out of Finnland/dying from the way the line is stated (stronger than me before those dastardly Finns got their hands on me). Thinking that Mo batting the angreal away from Lanf before tackling her through the door is important, unless she's very quick that's a good way to get severed or one power meltdown like LTT.

66

Callandor: 2005-08-09

**Read the passage before the off-cited quote. Cynfear's sneaky fireball is busted up by one of the ter'angreal that Alivia is wearing--this is shocking, something new to a know-it-all and egotistical AoLer. This is my explanation to the "she must have an angreal too" portion [too = has an angreal in addition to this crazy web busting up ter'angreal she has].**

The quote in full:

**TITLE: Winter's Heart

CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

"Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too. Shock lasted only the time it took her to slice the other woman's flows. She did not know how to reverse them. Maybe that would be enough advantage. She would see Lews Therin die! The taller woman jerked as her cut flows snapped back into her, but even as she shifted her feet with the blow, she channeled again. Snarling, Cyndane fought back, and the earth heaved beneath their feet. She would see him die! She would."

The point is that because Lanfear automatically assumes that Alivia has an angreal (of which she is very correct), when she should have no basis to judge that.

It could be simple arrogance, but Lanfear is one that should markedly deserve arrogance if she was the strongest. If she knows that she, and she alone, is the pinnicle of strength then it's easy to see why she so suddenly deduces how Alivia has an angreal. It's the how she knows that fact, which is very interesting.

**I suspect Cynf is going by how much Saider Alivia is holding/using.**

Difference being? Alivia is stronger than Cyndane and stronger than Lanfear was in this instance -- because of the angreal (more than likely a match without it anyway). In any case Lanfear judged Alivia's strength, where's the quibble?

**Thinking that Mo batting the angreal away from Lanf before tackling her through the door is important, unless she's very quick that's a good way to get severed or one power meltdown like LTT.**

If she was stilled, who Healed her? If she just died, why is she the only one with a power drop?