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anfear was Tricked by Moiraine

by mako0424: 2004-08-05 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: What Happened to Lanfear/Cyndane?

Ok, i have now reread the books about a million times each, and the more and more i read, the more and more tiny things i find which both seem very important and explanatory, but theseare the sorts of things i never noticed.

Ok, my theory is that everything that happened that day at the docks in Cairhien was set up by Moiraine.

We know Moiraine went through the rings and saw her own future over and over, and all the possibilities, she even stated that that day had three outcomes after the info. of Morgase's death reaches them that three distinct possibilities could have happened.

The optimal one happened, in that Moiraine sacrificed herself and took out Lanfear. Rand wasn't turned by Lanfear, and the other result was his death. Ok, now my theory becomes a little more intricate.

Moiraine knew about the importance of the doorway ter'angreal and even Rand, Kadere, and Egwene pick up on her interests in the doorway, but not just the doorway but all the ter'angreal. Also, she wrote out the two very descriptive, informative, and insightful letters, one to Thom and one to Rand.

Now Rands letter, told alot! She knew that Asmodean was posing as Jasin Natael and that he was training Rand. She also knew that she would be captured by the Finns.

Some more important things, Moiraine also mentions specifically to Rand not to trust Verin or Aviarhin. Now in my own opinion, Verin ain't bad, but we all know Aviarhin is very bad, and i think Moiraine knew she was a Darkfriend.

Moiraine also says that Lan would one day understand her choice to switch the bond to Myrelle, i think she also forsaw that giving it to Nynaeve would be disasterous. Maybe coz one dies or something, i dont know, but it sounds pre-determined.

But more importantly, we know that Min foresaw that Moiraine would help Rand win, and if she died, it could never come true, hence the reason everyone thinks Moiraine will be rescued by Thom which Egwene foresaw pulling the blue stone out of the fire.

Moiraine says in the letter to Rand, "I hope that Egwene and Aviendha have survived unharmed. You see, i don't know what happens in the world after, except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you."

I think this is evidence that Moiraine knows there is a chance she will survive, and i think something about this is in Thom's letter. Because Rand's letter had a ward on it making the words fade, whereas Thom rereads his all the time, meaning his didn't have a ward.

I think there could be detailed instructions on it. and a exclaimation for her love for him, but thats unimportant.

I think Moiraine foresaw that she could come back, and that she would do something crucial again at Tarmon Gaidon.

So knowing this, i think Moiraine again, planned even further ahead into the future.

My theory is Moiraine is behind Lanfear's death/and her severe drop in strength in the One Power.

How? ok, if anyone has "The Fires of Heaven" turn to the chapter "Choices" where this battle scene occured, and right at the end of the chapter from Moiraine's viewpoint she is watching Lanfear, blaze like the sun with saidar, and she sees Lanfear turning the ivory bracelet on her wrist. We know this is an angreal of sorts, and it helps Lanfear best Rand easily. Moiraine makes a few quick remarks about the bracelet which i find very important.

1. "an angreal, she [Lanfear} should be able to crush him [Rand] with that.

2. "Moiraine did not like that age-darkened circle of ivory."

3. "...it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grab his ankles. ..a closer look would show his wrists and ankles are bound."

4. "she [moiraine] brought that from Rhuidean, and the day before had taken it out of a sack of odds and ends and left it there by foot of the doorframe"

5. after climbing the wagon, and "surpressing a small bubble of hope". She embraced saidar and through herself at Lanfear ..."clawing the bracelet away".

It is in my opinion that Moiraine delibrately retrieved the bracelet and left it there for Lanfear to find and use.

So reading into all these hints and clues a bit more. I am of the opinion that Moiraine saw into the possible future if she was saved by Thom, and she saw that Lanfear/Cyndane would be at Tarmon Gaidon and she also foresaw that this one point could be crucial to victory or defeat. Also Cyndane's strength in the one power is a crucial element likewise.

I think the angreal of the bound "acrobat" doubles as some sort of power weakener or inhibitor of sorts. We know that angreal and ter'angreal were often made with some hints as to their use, i.e. the tel'aran'rhiod ter'angreal has a sleeping woman inside, or the Choedan Khal where the people hold spheres of power, symbolic of the world. I think this angreal when ripped off the wearer while holding saidar or something along these lines lessened Lanfear's ability.

Now, the reasoning behind all this is because when Lanfear died, is the Dark One brought her back, and then trapped her, why would he proceed to lessen her strength. This argument is null.

Now maybe Lanfear gave up some of her channeling ability to the Finns either willingly or un-willingly, but again i think this is preposterous. example, how did she still die, and why wouldnt the Finns ask for or take all of her ability instead of just some of it.

And also, we know Moiraine just like Lanfear was holding the Source when they fell in, so why would Lanfear suffer a much worse fate (i.e death, and lesser power)

i think Moiraine is either held captive or in a new body (doubtful) and she has full ability still. she also foresaw that if Thom saved her, she will probably be the one that bests Cyndane in TG, because she has less ability, and this will be one of many key turning points in TG.

But this is my in-depth theory for something not to important, but it is something to consider. Why would Moirane do anything with this angreal if it mattered not at all to the final outcome of the event. And in my opinion what other purpose could the angreal have served besides either killing lanfear or lowering her ability.

Thank you
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-10-29

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
There's no doubt in my mind that Moiraine orchestrated events on the docks that fateful day. She placed everything where it was supposed to be to assure that the best option of the three presented to her would come to pass.
Your analysis of the bracelet angreal is interesting. i cant' remember anyone else picking up on that. Perhaps it was the sudden loss of that particular angreal that caused the damage to Lanfear's ability. It might also explain why she was fiddling with it while she used it. Why would she do something as direct as that, in the midst of a towering murderous jealous rage?
Oh, and Moiraine doesn't strike me as the type of woman to write a love letter, posthumous or otherwise. She's a career woman to her fingertips. I'm hoping that letter will have some info that will be of use to Logain, if you know what i mean.

2

amazinglarry: 2004-10-29

I think the idea that the bracelet angreal is also a power-reducing ter'angreal is pretty far-fetched. In Moiraine's POV from that scene, it is mentioned only as an angreal. I think there would have been some other comment if it had been something more. And if there was such a thing as a power-reducer, you'd think Lanfear with all of her knowledge fromt he AOL would recognize it.

I think the most likely explanation for Lanfear's drop in power is that it's a punishment from the DO which he inflicted during the transmigration process. After all, her new name means "last chance," it is fitting that she was punished for her failure before being given a last chance.

Other people have also proposed the somewhat loony theory that Lanfear had figured out some way to boost her power at some point in her life, maybe by making a wish from the Finns, and this was lost when she was killed and transmigrated.

3

brother of Battles: 2004-10-29

I stated this in another theory like this one, but I will do it again. What if, when Moiraine ripped the angreal away from Lanfear, she was burnt out.

Once they are on the other side Lanfear would still be in a rage. While in that rage demands the 'Finn to give her back the ability to channel. But the hook is she asked for her ability back, but didn't set a price, same thing Mat did. Now, as far as we know, the 'Finn don't channel. How are they supose to know how strong Lanfear was. So they gave her back her ability, but no where near her original power level. And the Price of them giving her back her ability was of course her life. Which allowed the DO to transmigrate her into her new body Cyndane.

Now as for Moiraine, she saw all this happening and wisely kept her mouth shut for the time being. That could also be why she is still with them, the 'Finns won't let her leave without asking for something.

4

WinespringBrother: 2004-10-29

It's quite possible that Moiraine trapped with angreal with an inversed weave, to be triggered when coming into contact (or in the field of contact) with the doorway ter'angreal. Or maybe Moiraine just knew that harm would come to someone who was channeling while going through the doorway.

5

Callandor: 2004-10-29

**Ok, my theory is that everything that happened that day at the docks in Cairhien was set up by Moiraine.**

Err... well, yeah. Moiraine placed the angreal outside the doorway, exactly where Lanfear was needed to be.

**She also knew that she would be captured by the Finns.**

That I don't believe. I think that she believed she would have a chance at living; I don't think she knew the exact specifics of how.

**Some more important things, Moiraine also mentions specifically to Rand not to trust Verin or Aviarhin. Now in my own opinion, Verin ain't bad, but we all know Aviarhin is very bad, and i think Moiraine knew she was a Darkfriend.**

Way I take that event, was that Moiraine was warning Rand to trust no one. Similar to saying "Don't trust Alvairin; you do not know her. But don't trust anyone you know either, even Verin."

**Moiraine also says that Lan would one day understand her choice to switch the bond to Myrelle, i think she also forsaw that giving it to Nynaeve would be disasterous. Maybe coz one dies or something, i dont know, but it sounds pre-determined.**

Lan's always been against switching the bond. Moiraine simply knew taht because it was a forced thing done to him, he would eventually understand it. Kinda like being against driving in a car, but once you're in one and going, it's hard to be against it (or how Rand was against being the Dragon Reborn; once he realizes he's going to be the Dragon whether he wants to or not, he accepts it).

**We know this is an angreal of sorts, and it helps Lanfear best Rand easily.**

Wrong. Lanfer ~matched~ Rand, or was actually weaker; Rand bested himself, because he couldn't kill a woman (he actually has the thought in his head that he could kill her easily, but he can't kill a woman again).

**1. "an angreal, she [Lanfear} should be able to crush him [Rand] with that.**

Unless Rand has his own angreal, which he did.

**It is in my opinion that Moiraine delibrately retrieved the bracelet and left it there for Lanfear to find and use.**

That's not opinion; that's fact ;-) you quoted it yourself.

**I think the angreal of the bound "acrobat" doubles as some sort of power weakener or inhibitor of sorts.**

?

Angreals are angreals. Sa'angreals are sa'angreals. Ter'angreals are ter'angreals. We have no reference to a double effect of anything.

**And in my opinion what other purpose could the angreal have served besides either killing lanfear or lowering her ability.**

That it was bait was enough.

6

ilgross: 2004-10-29

I don't think Moirane was the reason behind Lanfears loss of power.

We all know that the use of power is connected to the soul. EG Halima.

So if the 'Finns took Lanfears strength away from her, before they killed her, then she would still be weak. Aswell if she was stilled when she went through the doorway, Then perhaps on the rehealing she was weaking as well.

7

Anubis: 2004-10-30

very nicely done. somthing always bothered me but I could never put my finger on it. so according to your theory moirine got the bracelet off lanfear before they fell through the gateway. (people who go to finnland are seperated... but... perhaps if there is physical contact... who knows) im assuming that lanfear and moririne were seperated. how do you take into account cyndanes comment she was stronger cyndane before the finns had held her? it could be lanfear refering to a general timeline... i dont know. ill have to think about it more and post a better response but i just wanted to congratulate you and bring that up.

8

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-01

I find the explanation that having the angreal clawed away while channeling through it is the simplest way to explain damage to Lanfear's channeling ability. Sadly, there are no comparables, so it will be difficult to get folks to buy. But it's still less of a stretch than other far-fetched theories out there involving Finn wishes. Work on finding comparable situations involving power drops and ter'angreal or angreal.

9

a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-01

I haven't exactly understood Your argument about the bracelet angreal, mako? In wich sense it is to be a "weakener"? It actually gave Lanfear more strenght during her battle with Rand. So what then? Do You suppose that the angreal's buffer prevented Lanfear from burning out her whole potential, so that Lanfear was only partially burned out?

Whatever was the true function of the bracelet, it was not working correctly in that moment, because it was in resonance with the door ter'angreal. The door ter'angreal was damaged, and the same was to be true also about the bracelet.

Didn't Moghedien try to use a device in the absolutely same form, when she wanted to punish Nynaeve in TAR, just before Birgitte interrupted her. Moghedien's idea was to bind in some way Nynaeve to some form in TAR. Lanfear's idea by the docks was IMO to make from LTT her faithful lover, as one of Moiraine's knowledges about the outcomes of the docks scene said. The form of the bracelet indicates it's manufacturing by the Shadow. IMO it was not only angreal, but a combination of an angreal and ter'angreal. Also, the resonance happens between two ter'angreals, not between angreal and ter'angreal.

10

What the Aelfinn Said: 2004-11-01

I think there's another possibility at work here. It's been suggested that perhaps when Moiraine and Lanfear fell through that gateway, they were not in fact separated (as is usually expected) because they were grappling with each other and therefore in physical contact. Supposing that's true, and that Moiraine suspected as much, then wouldn't it be likely she would have planned for a fight on the other side? We know she clawed the angreal out of Lanfear's grip before they fell through. Perhaps she wanted to make sure she'd have an advantage on the other side of the gateway and planned accordingly. It's possible that with an angreal of sufficient strength she'd be nearly as strong or even stronger than Lanfear.

11

mako0424: 2004-11-01

I feel like so many ideas and suggestions are twisted and rejected just for the sake of argument sometimes. I didn't mention resonance of any sort, even though it makes alot of sense, but my argument wasn't about that. It was indicative of Moiraine's intentions and what consequences happened as a result.

ie. Moiraine clearly left that specific angreal out for a specific reason, knowing that Lanfear would use it to almost best Rand and kill the group. Now this has no explaination unless Moiraine had previous knowledge that somehow it would help in the end.

i dont think because it is an acrobat bound wrist and ankle that it implies it was made by the Shadow,. but i do think it implies that it has no buffer or some other use, ie. binding, power burn-out or decrease in power. that was my argument.

12

UberAshaman: 2004-11-02

wouldn't lanfear have been stilled because she was handling far more of the OP than normal through the angreal and then having it ripped away??

and another thing, if the angreal was a 'weakener' of sorts than why would lanfear or anyone for that matter want to use it?

13

NargsBrood: 2004-11-02

maybe the fins lessened their abilities determined by how much they actually held at the time. if lanfears was decreased by 80-90% of her regular ability, then moir would be decreased 80-90% of how much she held with the angreal which when decreased would actually make her stronger. I think it will all come out in the next book! no? it has to with only 2 books left.

14

fistandantilus: 2004-11-02

I would have to agree that it has some other purpose besides being an angreal. It was left out by Moiraine for Lanfear to pick up, and then ripped off before going to 'Finnland. If she wanted it just to boost her power, she would have kept it. The idea that it was a limiter is appealling.

15

fistandantilus: 2004-11-02

Two points, UberAshaman.

One, the angreal enables the user to draw only so much more of the source and includes a buffer to prevent OD. The additional Power is drawn through the angreal, so if the angreal is suddenly removed, the user would stop drawing on the source through the angreal and only be using what she was befor ethe angreal came into play.

And two, I don't think Lanfear was in anything close to a rational state of mind to make any decision involving her safety.

This is how I see it happening:

Lanfear is REALLY pissed, in a murderous rage. She feels a resonance in the power, telling her there is an angreal near. She thinks, "Ooooh, I could really f*** with that little bastard now. I'll make that SOB wish he was never born with that much of the power!" She picks it up and uses it, thinking ONLY of the benefit of the added Power. Plus, she is slightly distracted because she is in the middle of an OP battle with Rand at the time. And she is REALLY pissed. REALLY. Pissed. If you re-read that section of the book, RJ describes it better than I can here.

16

What the Aelfinn Said: 2004-11-03

I still think Moiraine intended to use it herself. The reason why she HAD to leave it (aside from seeing Lanfear using it in her visions in Rhuidean) was as bait. I don't think Lanfear would have attacked, even angry as she was, without a sure knowledge of victory. She knew Rand had been getting trained by Asmodean, she knew Rand was stronger than she in raw strength, and she may have even suspected he had an angreal of his own. If that angreal had not been there for her to use, she would not have struck in the first place and the chance for Moiraine to get her out of the picture (remember how worried Moiraine was about Lanfear tempting Rand to the dark) would have been lost.

17

UberAshaman: 2004-11-04

"lanfears was decreased by 80-90% of her regular ability"

lanfear was only decreased by a little bit because she was still stronger than Graendal as Cyndane.

The Path of Daggers

Ch.12 - New Alliances, Pg. 278

The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women.

So obviously Lanfear/Cynadane couldn't have lost too much strength to still be stronger than Graendal

18

Callandor: 2004-11-04

**So obviously Lanfear/Cynadane couldn't have lost too much strength to still be stronger than Graendal**

It can be. It's all in comparison.

She's weaker, yes, but still stronger than Graendal, which means she's still immensely strong in the OP even by AOL standards. If Lanfear = 20, and Graendal = 14, and Cyndane = 15, then Cyndane is still stronger than Graendal, but considerably weaker than Lanfear. Hence why it could be so apparent to any female channeler.

19

golem22: 2004-11-04

Its been a long time since i graced the halls of theoryland, Lanfear only did lose a small ammount of her power most likely as the of dealing with the finns.

Here are some points to ponder, in the first door way in tear it is mentioned that questions that brush the dark one have "dire" results. Perhaps (quite wisely) the finns fear the dark one and oppose him though not the same way or the same reason that people of robert jordans world must. It is quite likely that Lanfear being much much more powerful and learned could fight her way free or negotiate her way free but it would come with a cost. hence she loses her power and most likely dies as well (only to be resurected).

That leads to a second series of questions, why did moraine not get free. And if she went through the door way what did she get from there? we all know that the finns have the power to give what is needed and asked for. It is quite likely that moraine recieved some gifts, special knowledge or abilities from the finns but perhaps there cost is that they are keeping her in there world. Its just a matter of time though before thom, mat and possibly that little brat olver? come in and rescue her.

20

Jay al Ender: 2004-11-04

I like the idea of Moiranie being behind Lanfears lower power. I agree with the statement that the bound up angeral meaning something else too. Could be that some of her power was transferred to Moiranie which would be why she would be needed at the last battle. She has to be there some way, we can all agree on that. Why is it necessary that she is there though? I almost like the idea that once they were though the doorway and Moiranie was able to use the angeral with Lanfears taken power she was able to kill Lanfear and then became the Finns prisoner since there wasn't a way to send her back. Explains why Lanfear had to be brought back to life. Why she is weaker. And why Moiranie would be a critical part of the last battle.

21

Wag al Thor: 2004-11-04

I'm new to the site, so this might be discussed elsewhere that I haven't found yet... I believe there is much more to Moirane than we know about. I remember a comment in one of the early books (not sure which) where she tells the girls that she knows who she will marry better than they do. Could this somehow tie into the letter she left for Thom? Did she know, even then, that somehow her fate was tied to Thom, he would save her, and then they'd marry?

22

Anubis: 2004-11-04

UberAshaman. Angreal and Sa'Angreal are built with a protection. If you drop them you are just suddenly channeling less. They are like a magnifying glass, not just a raw increase in the ammount of power you can hold.

23

UberAshaman: 2004-11-05

In my first, first point, i said that lanfear would be stilled because she was holding too much.

fistandtilus, i think you misunderstood me when you said -

"One, the angreal enables the user to draw only so much more of the source and includes a buffer to prevent OD. The additional Power is drawn through the angreal, so if the angreal is suddenly removed, the user would stop drawing on the source through the angreal and only be using what she was befor ethe angreal came into play"

waht i was saying was that normaily lanfear could hold, lets say, 80 units of OP safely. with the angreal she could hold 130 units safely. when moiraine ripped the angreal away, lanfear was still holdin 130 units while her maximum OP limit was back to her normal 80, resulting in a severe 'burn-out' of lanfears ability to channel

24

Gambler86: 2004-11-05

Sorry guys, this is a side question. Two actually I'm new to the series and just wanted to know does anyone In WOT know that That a Female channeled(halima) Besides the dead Ashaman? One more.. If Min is Never wrong then whats up with Perrin and the Two chicks? Thanks guys.

25

Callandor: 2004-11-07

**Did she know, even then, that somehow her fate was tied to Thom, he would save her, and then they'd marry?**

There is very little doubt (mainly from people that just don't want to see it happen ;)), that Moiraine will return, and that she knew about it.

26

Wag al Thor: 2004-11-09

I agree completely. My point is when did Moirane become aware of this? Didn't she mention in EotW that she had met the Green Man already? I think this previous visit is the basis for her knowledge, and I am sure we will hear about it in one of the other prequels RJ plans to write. As a side note, to what purpose did Moirane venture into the blight when she was on her quest to find the dragon reborn? Was it specifically to find the green man? Did he point her to the Two Rivers?

27

Callandor: 2004-11-10

**My point is when did Moirane become aware of this? Didn't she mention in EotW that she had met the Green Man already? I think this previous visit is the basis for her knowledge, and I am sure we will hear about it in one of the other prequels RJ plans to write.**

2 instances stand out to me:

1. When Moiraine first met Min; she saw a Viewing about her and Thom.

2. When Rand and co. where at Baerlon and Rand first met Min; interesting that Min had been talking to Moiraine right before this, and made the example of "I see two strangers, and know they will marry" .... :)

28

Githraine: 2004-11-18

Let us not forget that there is only one currently known way to have one's strength reduced.

It is likely that Lanfear was Stilled one way or another and then Healed by the one of the Forsaken who was in a position to see how it was done, and under Mor/Ishy's thumb at the right time. (Moggy)

29

Githraine: 2004-11-18

Ok, So far there is only one way we have been shown for a channeler to lose strength. That is to be Stilled and Healed by a channeler of the same Sex. Therefore, it is most likely that Lanfear was stilled in the fight or with the ‘finn and then healed once recovered.

It just happens that the only Forsaken who could know of that weave was with Ishy/Moradin at the right time to heal Lanfear.