1
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-06
However, in regards to your idea, the DO wasn't able to break those "points" in the "shield" for three thousand years, while Rand, once the weaves were tied off, was able to break the shield. Maybe, it is more appropriate to suggest the Cuendillar seals are like a soft point, impossible to break through six or seven, unless they turn to knots (or begin to breakdown).
2
Callandor: 2005-02-06
**If the 100 companions were linked (thus needing women) the seal would have held.**
Cost being both saidin and saidar tainted. And that rests on if it was inherent that the seals needed to be placed precisely (thus needing the links), or if the use of the seals themselves were the actual flaw.
For all intensive purposes, Lews Therin's plan worked and the seals were placed just perfectly fine, without needing females in links.
3
Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-02-06
I like it! You might want to consider why the seals are vulnerable now, when they weren't in the last 3000 years. What happened to make them 'hard'? Otherwise, your explanation that small spaces remained between the flows because the women didn't help seems reasonable and plausible. If it is true, then seals placed by men and women together would last much longer than 3000 years, but might still have even finer spaces the Dark One could worm into.
4
a dragonburned fool: 2005-02-07
I always thought that the Seal on the Bore was a kind of shield, knotted in hard points, that are hidden in cuendillar "focus points" and so cuendillar made them unaccessible for DO. But because of being tied off, the weave will have natural time of life, and now it comes to be expired.
5
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-07
Allow me to clairfy a bit, the hard points on the seal cannot be broken instantly. They need to be worked through just like when Rand broke his shield. I belive that the Cuellendar weave was used as part of the knot for the seal, but because only men made the seal, the knots were not completly connected with the cuellendar and they were less complex than they would have been if the seal had been made while linked. The reason it took 3000 years for the DO to break through was that the knots in the cuellendar weave are extremely complex, unlike the quick knots that the sisters tied on Rand. Remeber Liandrin was shielded by Moggy and her shield was knotted with an amazingly complex knot that she wouldn't be able to untie.
6
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-07
I think you would be hard pressed to prove the Dark One was doing that and just so happened to coincide with the Dragon's Rebirth and the draining of the Eye.
7
Gareth: 2005-02-07
There is no need for proof Tamyrlin. The DO breaking free is the point of the greatest need of humankind and the Wheel of Time spun the Dragon out to face it.
This is not just happenstance that the failing of the "shield" and the coming of the dragon both happen in the same time but the will of the Wheel. Otherwise, the prophecies are just useless words.
8
Tamyrlin: 2005-02-07
Gareth, I grant you that, the Wheel took care of it. However, the idea that the DO has been attempting to work out a knot for three thousand years and finally did it...c'mon, that was my point. I think it obviously had more to do with the taint and the Eye of the World than it had to do with the "knots".
9
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-10
The knots take time to break. Rand didn't break the knot on his shield immedietly, and Liandrin's shield is knotted so it would take her longer than she has to unknot it. The knots on the DO's shield were most likely more complex, and were rooted in Cuellendar so the were stronger.
10
Anubis: 2005-02-10
If the "seal" is a shield, it is a shield with 7 knots instead of your traditional one. It would seem that when knot 1 is broken, then knot 2 is easier to break, and so on. Perhaps this deserves its own Theory, but why hasnt the Dark One broken free yet? Its pretty clear that he could have at this point, and I believe that Morridin wants him to be broken free at a specific time after preperations are made. What are these preperations I wonder, and why wait? Is the Dark One merely like the Queen in a game of chess? Very powerfull but not game ending...
11
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-11
Good point, it could also be as I have seen here somewhere, that the seals will only break from physical force, or from some monumentous event. It could be that the DO needs some shift in the balance of power to break another seal.
12
reTaardad: 2005-02-11
First off, I believe this theory to be true because of one simple fact: How else would the 100 Companions have sealed the Dark One up than with a shield made of the Power? They certainly would not have had the power to seal the Dark One with the power of the Creator or some other power that hasn't yet been mentioned (God forbid).
Remember to take into consideration that not only would the shield be immensely thick (100 men directing weaves into a single place), the knot extremely intricate (it's the Age of Legends, after all), but also the weaves are perhaps not made like an average shield. While the shields that we think of are woven purely of Spirit to block a channeler from reaching the One Power, the shield on the Dark One's prison may have to be blocked using several strands of the Power. Whatever this conglomeration of the Power may be, I think that the more strands of the Power that are included in a weave, the more difficult it would be to break it. So eventually, over time, the Dark One has reached through this shield and we know from Rand's POV, each piece of a shield broken makes the next piece easier to shatter.
13
Ozymandias: 2005-02-17
I think that the analogy of paperwieghts on a piece of cloth is a good one. While I dont think that the seals are a shield in the common sense of the word (for channeling randlanders), they are created of the One Power, and therefore is a shield, technically. We have to remember that the people in the AoL knew tons more than Aes Sedai today do. So i think the seals are more like seven paperwieghts which are wieghing down a universal shield on the DO's prison. The DO cannot reach these tied of knots, because the fabric of the shield, our metaphorical cloth, stands between the knots and the DO, rather than as an integrated part of the shield. This is why the DO hasnt broken free yet. And my theory of why he has broken out, finally (or is starting to), is that when Rand fought at the Eye of the World, his use of that major amount of distilled OP caused a small gash in the fabric of the shield, allowing the DO to now reach through and touch the world, as well as begin to start undoing the knots which are the seals. And as each one is undone, the others become weaker, so that is why it is possible to begin to break the other easily.
14
Aiel Finn: 2005-03-10
Good logic, but the DO was touching the world before the battle at the Eye. The spring was late in coming. The blight was growing extremely quickly.
15
mazrimashaman: 2005-04-08
I had never thought of it as a shield, but it does make sence, because it just blocks him from touching the world
16
free will: 2005-06-12
Tamyrlin: "However, in regards to your idea, the DO wasn't able to break those "points" in the "shield" for three thousand years, while Rand, once the weaves were tied off, was able to break the shield. Maybe, it is more appropriate to suggest the Cuendillar seals are like a soft point, impossible to break through six or seven, unless they turn to knots (or begin to breakdown)."
In the Strike at SG, the seals are described as "focus points", and I think there purpose is to be exactly like a soft spot as opposed to a knot. Being heartstone, the expectation was to last long enough to come up with a better solution. In week 8 of questions, RJ makes an analogy to shields and the bore that is very very strong.
Callandor and Aiel Finn: The hundred companions couldn't all link. "a circle of seventy-two is the maximum possible"-BWB. And since linking just allows a single weaver, not linking just makes it harder to be more precise. Insufficiently precise was feared to immediately free Shai'tan. Did that happen?
And Aiel Finn, do you really think that only having men affected how well a knot can be tied off in a focus point? Linking just allows a single person to control all the flows for a more precise weave. There is not another single difference.
Great Lord of the Dark:"small spaces remained between the flows because the women didn't help seems reasonable and plausible."
Everyone who weaves, weaves threads of the five powers. If a shield has a bunch of spirit threads, then a different man can start each thread and weave the same pattern, it's just harder to do it precisely. Linking has no difference. Now if a spirit weave only has 7 threads: then at most seven men could actually produced the shield on the Bore that was held by the seals, the rest being cannon fodder, distractions, or temporary separate shields that were tied off. If the last option, maybe Shai'tan had to bust the tied off shields one at a time before he could start affecting the soft points of the seals.
Anubis:"why hasnt the Dark One broken free yet? Its pretty clear that he could have at this point, and I believe that Morridin wants him to be broken free at a specific time after preperations are made. What are these preperations I wonder, and why wait?"
If you read my latest theory in this same category, if a seal were broken by a mortal subject to Balefire and Shai'tan got free, then someone could balefire that seal breakers and then it's a very very bad situation for Shai'tan.
17
free will: 2005-06-12
In the BWB, Shai'tan's prison is described as appearing like a source of the True Power. Could the pattern appear like a source of the One Power? Shai'tan is sometimes described as an anti-thesis to the Creator, but could his prison be it's own pattern? Could Rand perform a switch?
If the prison has it's own separate pattern and Rand can trick Shai'tan to get trapped his pattern, could Rand take everyone else to the prison and the net effect is a giant switch in territory and then from the prison have access to the "other side" of the Bore and from there undo it? Maybe if Meirin were brought to the prison and balefired there it would affect the Bore on that side and not be a large weave, since not much time passed for Lanfear while sealed away with Shai'tan, so maybe over in that pattern there hasn't been much time at all since the creation of the Bore.
Kinda out there, but I wanted to share. Did that make sense to anyone?
18
Callandor: 2005-06-13
**Callandor and Aiel Finn: The hundred companions couldn't all link. "a circle of seventy-two is the maximum possible"-BWB. And since linking just allows a single weaver, not linking just makes it harder to be more precise. Insufficiently precise was feared to immediately free Shai'tan. Did that happen?**
More to the point anyway, since if they did link, saidar would've been tainted along with saidin.
**And Aiel Finn, do you really think that only having men affected how well a knot can be tied off in a focus point? Linking just allows a single person to control all the flows for a more precise weave. There is not another single difference.**
Technically incorrect -- linking is more powerful, especially in the case of mixed circles.
19
JakOShadows: 2005-06-13
I see what your saying, but I don't really think of the DO having his own pattern. That's why he's trying to influence the age lace that the creator has created. In the DO's prison, there is nothing to control, no age lace or pattern, so that's why he's struggling with the creator.
20
Tristin: 2005-06-13
This theory also explains how the DO gets stronger (like Asmo). As time passess even the most intricate shield will fall apart, if he picks at it even sooner, letting him channel through the shield bit by bit. The question is how to cut the DO off from the TP (from himself)...hahaha
21
free will: 2005-06-13
**And Aiel Finn, do you really think that only having men affected how well a knot can be tied off in a focus point? Linking just allows a single person to control all the flows for a more precise weave. There is not another single difference.**
Technically incorrect -- linking is more powerful, especially in the case of mixed circles.
BWB (page 23): "These combined flows handle more Power tahn any one member could channel alone, [...] but the linked flow is not as strong as each of the separate strengths."
So I'd say that linking is less powerful. Yes, the author says that "it is the precision of the circles that makes them so powerful" but he means effective, he is quite clear that it is a less powerful flow with an example: "Two women linked can handle more than either could separately, and with much greater control than with multiple flows -- because it is a single flow -- but they cannot handle as much as the two could separately."
Since the subject of the inconsistency of the author of the BWB has come up in other threads, I'd be happy to entertain any quotes you have that two linked women are stronger than the sum of the two strengths, since it would show the author of the BWB to be wrong. Do you have such a quote Callandor?
The BWB says that "the strongest linked circles were those which contained nearly equal numbers of men and women." So a circle with 7 women and 6 men is stronger than a circle with 13 women even if the six replacement women are as strong individually as the 6 replace men. But even the 7 and 6 circle is weaker than the sum of the individual strengths, it is just stronger than the circle of 13 women.
22
Callandor: 2005-06-13
**So I'd say that linking is less powerful.**
I can't see how you would draw that conclusion. It's not as strong as simple adding the two strengths of the women together, but it is stronger.
**TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 3 - Pale Shadows
"Asmodean was not finished. "If two women link, they do not double their strength-linking is not as simple as adding together the power of each-but if they are strong enough, they can match a man. And when they take the circle to thirteen, then you must be wary. Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard. I came across a saying in Arad Doman. 'The more women there are about, the softer a wise man steps.' It would not be bad to remember it."**
And as I said, it was a technicality. You simply jumped to a conclusion too fast by stating there wasn't another difference.
**The BWB says that "the strongest linked circles were those which contained nearly equal numbers of men and women."**
That is what I meant more specified to the topic at hand.
23
Narianna: 2005-06-14
no there is no such contradiction.
IIRC in the books also it is mentioned that linking does not double the strength.it is the precision in acting together that makes circles strong.
also after a certain point the strength of a channeler can be negated by the number.
IIRC it is mentioned that thirteen of the weakest can shield a single man with a saangreal ;even if he has callandor.
24
Anubis: 2005-06-14
**IIRC it is mentioned that thirteen of the weakest can shield a single man with a saangreal ;even if he has callandor.**
I dont believe you.
25
Anubis: 2005-06-14
**More to the point anyway, since if they did link, saidar would've been tainted along with saidin.**
Actually we dont know that. To my knowledge all RJ has said on the matter was that the DO essentially got lucky and a specific set of circumstances arose that allowed him to taint saidin and that these circumstances were very unlikely to be seen again.
26
Anubis: 2005-06-14
I FOUND IT
Question: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?
RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?"
And about the linking thing. Its extremely vague. It could mean that an Aes Sedai with a power level of... lets say 2, and another 2 linking would make a 5, but it could also mean that it would make a 3. In fact I find the 3 to be much more likely.
27
Aiel Finn: 2005-06-15
In much belated defense of my own theory. The reason that not linking caused the shield to be breakable is that the shield was made of one hundred weak shields instead of a few strong shields. Linking would have allowed the individual shields to have been made stronger. When Rand in shielded, his guards are linked while shielding him. Because of this the shield is too strong for him to break. When the shield becomes weakened buy having fewer in the link, he is able to break through. If each Sister had shielded him seperatly, he could have broken through all of the shields, even if 13 Sisters did it. It just would have taken time. The shield on the DO's prision was one hundred layers of single strength shields with Cuellendar-reinforced knots. The DO was able to break this seal because, he only has to break one at a time, it takes him time, but is doable. If the Companions had female Aes Sedai to help, they could have made shields that the DO could not break.
On another note the reason I think that multiple shields would be needed (even if they were full strength linked shields) is that the TP seems to "glow" or "smell" so even if the DO couldn't break one of the strong shields, his evil could still leak into the world with only one shield.
28
Mad Tinker: 2005-06-15
Narianna, could you produce the quote that states a circle of thirteen could shield a man holding a sa'angreal? I understand a large circle of the weakest channelers can overpower any man, but I don't see them handling a sa'angreal of that caliber.
29
Tristin: 2005-06-16
in Path of Daggers Rand says that with Callandor he can channel as much as a hundred men, maybe more. We KNOW that a circle of thirteen can't hold a hundred men, and not just because they couldn't fight a hundred weaves at once.
30
Narianna: 2005-06-16
tinker and anubis.
as i don't have the premium account and my books are not with me at the present i can at best give you only a vague indication of it.
this fact IIRC is mentioned in the pov of rand as he muses on the teachings of asmo.the text around it went something like
after a certain point the strength did not matter...but the number of channelers.
or perhaps i read it in the extract of BWB i came across on a site
i really don't know the source of this memory in my head ...
i would appreciate if you could search it in the books
31
Callandor: 2005-06-16
**Actually we dont know that. To my knowledge all RJ has said on the matter was that the DO essentially got lucky and a specific set of circumstances arose that allowed him to taint saidin and that these circumstances were very unlikely to be seen again.**
And what do you think were those circumstances? The seals being placed.
If you can get to it, go to Dragomount and look at the Budapest audio interviews -- Number 10 has RJ saying flat out that if women had been present at the sealing of the Bore, saidar would've been tainted too. Because of that, what is left for the special circumstances? The seals. They are the only thing left.
Link that is giving me trouble, but I know it has worked in the past:
interview link.
32
WCDWarder: 2005-06-17
Regarding Callandor's theory that the women didn't participate in the sealing of the bore because they did not want saidar to be tainted like saidin: Did any of the channelers anticipate the taint? I could be wrong, but I don't recall any source indicating that they knew saidin would be tainted after sealing the bore. Unless they knew in advance that the taint would happen, they obviously could not make a conscious decision not to participate just to avoid the taint on saidar.
33
Anubis: 2005-06-17
Found it and I stand corrected. :P
34
Narianna: 2005-06-18
tristin , in PoD if you are referring to the time when rand is riding to match seanchan then i am afraid we can't give much importance to his musings.
the weirdness caused by the bowl of winds coupled with the flaw in callandor has made me suspicious of this POV of rand.if you could dig out the quotes then we can perhaps have a relook at them.
35
Callandor: 2005-06-19
**Regarding Callandor's theory that the women didn't participate in the sealing of the bore because they did not want saidar to be tainted like saidin: Did any of the channelers anticipate the taint?**
1. Theory? No theory here -- RJ says it flat out female channelers present at the sealing = tainted saidin and tainted saidar.
2. I never said that they did not participate because they thought saidin would be tainted. As the BWB, no one counted on the Dark One's counterstroke.
3. The reason the women did not participate is because they felt Lews Therin's plan to be too rash and too dangerous. The placing of the seals needed to be exact. It was widely thought that this required a circle of seven women and six men all well above average strength in the One Power. Because of this, work on the sa'angreal was rushed ahead.
**in Path of Daggers Rand says that with Callandor he can channel as much as a hundred men, maybe more. We KNOW that a circle of thirteen can't hold a hundred men, and not just because they couldn't fight a hundred weaves at once.**
Rand in this scene is more than anything being similar to a heroin junky shooting pure heroin -- IE: a state of uphoria we can't even comprehend. While holding a sa'angreal, especially in Rand's case, is a huge boost of strength, it's unlikely it was 100 men. That being said, I feel it was more like 70 ;)
And, no, as far as I know, there is no quote at all that states a circle of 13 can cut a man off from the source while he has an angreal or sa'angreal. If you notice in Lord of Chaos when Rand is taken, he does not have his angreal in contact with him. It says he has his red silk coat on that he usually kept his angreal in, but it is a presumption that it is in there (though I would say it would be a correct one).
