hardcore fan freaks of the wheel of time
Theoryland Resources
WoT Interview Search
Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.
Wheel of Time News
An Hour With Harriet
2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.
The Bell Tolls
2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."
Theoryland Community
Members: 7653
Logged In (0):
Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,
Theoryland Tweets
Theories
Recent Comments
Last ten comments at Theoryland.
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodIf DO was able to alter reality with power...by Amaentes
Callandor's PurposeJust wanted to comment on something in reg...by Joram
Mat's luck is caused by the daggerSorry to necro this thread, but I was just...by Joram
The Real SlayerI was just thinking that since the Finns l...by jimbop79
Verin Compelled AlannaThis was alluded to early on, but let me s...by jimbop79
When the Dark One winsAlthough the books are over here is what m...by pjrobertson
Moghedien Raises the DeadThis has a lot of spoilers, so please, if ...by NaeblisSunshine
Mat & the Horn of ValereWow, found a link to this while purging my...by shaihalud
Breaking the SealsNow see, Rand isn't the only one who wants...by MMustafa
Nakomi's Soul Is BrownIn the epilogue as rand is carrying Moridins ...by Waxer
Recent Theories
Last ten theories at Theoryland.
Padan Fain, Roommates With the Dark Oneby aNewAge
The Real Slayerby Cabadrin
How the Bore Will Be Sealedby Tremalking
The Bore is in Tel’aran’rhiodby Great Lord of the Dark
Callandor's Purposeby RealAshaman
Rand and the True Powerby Zombie Sammael
Caemlyn's Battleby 1eyedfool
Moghedien Raises the Deadby Truthless
Breaking the Sealsby Kamaul
Let me die forever!by Kamaul
Home | Index | Archives | Help
ogain Frees the DO
by free will: 2005-06-09 | 2.48 out of 10 (21 votes)
Previous Categories: The Nature of the Bore
It was my understanding that the presage to the bore was just a thin spot and that today it still was just a thin spot, and that it's just thinner than it was when Mierin first found it. Imagine a balloon and someone pushes a pencil into it, not enough to pop it, but right at the pencil the balloon is thinner.
My theory is about balefire, Logain, T'A'R, Rand's death, Ta'veren, etc. all come together for the sealing of the DO. If Rand entangles himself in the bore in the flesh in T'A'R and is killed by Logain in such a way that the bore then becomes an actual hole and then as the DO starts passing through (all bets are now off) Logain then gets balefired, the hole is now again (and now always was) a thin spot and not a hole, Rand is alive as he is part of the pattern and Logain was part of the pattern but his affects are undone, but the DO not being part of the pattern, doesn't have his actions undone, he's now stuck in the thin spot that was never a hole, he can risk being pulled into the pattern or he can pull his stuck self far far away from the pattern, pulling the pattern thin thin thin in that one spot, until it's as thin as when Meirin found it, but since it pulls in parts of the rest of the pattern, it's thinner than when Rand entangled himself in the bore in the flesh in T'A'R.
So it's like the DO himself is the proper "patch" for the hole that isn't ever really a hole but is just a thin spot. Now if Rand's death were public, he could then escape the lime light and let the dead Logain get the credit for defeating the DO. I thought that this has to happen in T'A'R in the flesh too, because the real world just isn't enough in my opinion.
But I also imagine that a literal dragon is involved somehow, maybe Rand turns into a Dragon shape when entangling himself inside the bore.
Counter evidence for this theory comes from other who think that the DO has a separate prison beside the pattern itself, a prison made by the DO out of stuff that isn't part of the pattern. If so, nothing done in the pattern would logically be able to affect the prison, since it wouldn't be made of the pattern. But if that's true then the bore, being made by Meirin and company must be made up of the pattern and again didn't affect the prison's inner nature at all, and merely connected it (the inside edge of the prison) weakly to the pattern, by creating a bidge of sorts out of pattern material. Now if the bore is unblocked (break the seals, and wait) and the DO starts to come through (and he'll have to come through over a period of time because the bore is part of the pattern and subject to the wheel), then the DO would be touching the pattern on his way out of his prison, but the prison would be the prison as always, not broken and instead just connected to the rest of the pattern via a pattern-based bridge. Then when the bore is reclogged, the DO would be stuck in a clogged portion of the pattern, he's stuck in the pattern unless he can get it off of him. How can he possibly get the pattern off of him? I think his only method is to retreat to his prison and pull the part of him trapped in the pattern through the prison walls along the bridge and then pull some more. The prison walls not being part of the pattern would hopefully by the creator's design allow the DO back through, but the pattern-based bore and/or blockage would not be allowed deep inside the prison, so he would end up breaking the bore with his own DO sized force, and the pattern bridge can snap back to the rest of pattern and you have a DO in a prison with a vast gulf between him and the pattern, just as Meirin first sensed him.
Some people might think that the DO would like being part of the pattern, stuck in it, but I think that having some seals stuck in you would limit you, and being limited and stuck to the pattern would make you mortal and subject to the Wheel, so I don't think the DO would like that. He wants to touch the pattern, not be a part of it, and I think those are very different things.
So in both cases things are as Meirin found them originally, Rand dies but is alive again. Logain is famous. T'A'R and Ta'veren are probably required, and no more concerns about the bore or the DO until the next AoL.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-11
It's strange how many things go back to our individual understandings of the basic makeup of this world. For example, as you know, I consider the understanding of the DO's relationship to this world, to be had from an omnisicient narrator, within creation. Therefore, that individual has an idea, based on all happenings, ideas, worlds, etc., but that even the narrator's understanding is limited by being within creation. Therefore, I am led to believe the Dark One, from what we know has happened, cannot actually escape into the Pattern. While the Bore enables him to influence the Pattern, it is like the taint on Saidin, it sits above it, coloring the power, soiling it, but it never is able to mix with it, to become it. After the Bore was created by Meirin, resulting in fiery destruction, the Dark One spent more than a hundred years influencing the world, all the while through the Bore. Why didn't he escape? Is size really a consideration? Can we give the Dark One dimensions based on reality with the Pattern? How large does the Bore have to become...and does that really matter? From what the Dark One has done, we know he likes to destroy creation, through corruption. However, as far as we know, throughout infinite time, he hasn't escaped the prison he was given, nor has he gotten out during any of the previous infinite Ages where Bores have been made. However, besides my disbelief in such an occurrence, I do like the way you have incorporated balefire (live twice, die twice) into the Last Battle, that in some way it will be used to defy the Dark One and reseal the Bore. I am not sure about the T'A'R connection; can you elaborate on how that would apply to what you are suggesting Rand and Logain would do?
free will: 2005-06-11
I should have written "it's thicker than when Rand entangled himself in the bore in the flesh in T'A'R." in stead of it's thinner than when Rand entangled himself in the bore in the flesh in T'A'R.
Why didn't he escape? Is size really a consideration?
BWB chapter 5 (page 49): "[Shai'tan] does not, however, have the ability to break free of his prison without assistance from our world. The fact that the War of the Shadow began with an attempt by his followers to complete what the Bore began is proof of this limitation" does seem to indicate that size is a problem. BWB chapter 4 (page 41): "Like a small finger hole in a prison wall, the Bore was not large enough to allow the Dark One's escape" specifically mentions size, but also uses the word "like", so not totally certain. The BWB also describes the bore as an actual hole in the pattern, not just a thinner spot like other sources mentioned. But same deal, if it expands, the DO is in the middle and then it shrinks, then it'll have the DO trapped. But if it's an actual hole, then it's harder because you'd just have a stuck DO, but maybe if the DO was stuck to his prison and to the pattern, Rand could use the DO as a bridge to reach the prison and turn that into the new creation, DO is trapped in creation which is now a new prison, Rand puts the wheel onto the prison and get a first moment, takes people over there.
That assumes that the prison is something other than the pattern, which I'm not sure about, if the pattern is the only thing that makes part of the not-pattern into a prison, then if the DO is stuck in the pattern and has nothing else then it seems that nothing is left. Except a loop hole big enough to drive a universe through, in that RJ says that all bets are off in the DO is out. In this case he's out but still trapped. There is a terrible possibility in a circular timed universe, which is what if the DO is the Creator? Once out he can do anything. If he doesn't like the wheel, maybe he can free himself from the pattern only by binding himself inside and starting creation anew. Sorta like hitting a reset button. He wants free, he prefers bound in his prison and creating a pattern to being subject to the wheel and he always tries to escape and get actual freedom, but the only pattern that he can make to get unstuck from the one that traps him is one that produces a Dragon that opposes him.
That's even more speculative, but it's big on irony and the DO would have the power to make it so.
Can we give the Dark One dimensions based on reality with the Pattern? How large does the Bore have to become...and does that really matter?
The premise was that if there is a separate prison and then the bore has to be connection not a hole and that to follow the pattern based connection, he'll be temporarily subject to size and time while using the bridge. He can't get out alone, if he could that would negate the words "prison" and "bound".
From what the Dark One has done, we know he likes to destroy creation, through corruption. However, as far as we know, throughout infinite time, he hasn't escaped the prison he was given, nor has he gotten out during any of the previous infinite Ages where Bores have been made.
He's not really out on this one either, he thinks he's out and so gets himself stuck, but the bore being complete is an undone event, never really happened, it's like a a giant "psyche" on the DO.
However, besides my disbelief in such an occurrence, I do like the way you have incorporated balefire (live twice, die twice) into the Last Battle, that in some way it will be used to defy the Dark One and reseal the Bore. I am not sure about the T'A'R connection; can you elaborate on how that would apply to what you are suggesting Rand and Logain would do?
T'A'R has some flexibility. I glossed over Rand entangling himself, and T'A'R seems a requirement for something so strange. In T'A'R one can just imagine a'dam and they are there, seems a shortcut way to get access keys, or seals, or other ter'angrael required for such a feat. Or creating a bridge between worlds from SG real world and SG in T'A'R and having the action there could even bring a gateway slicing effect. Gateways cut stuff, but maybe when they close it affects threads, maybe something right on that spot in multiple or in all worlds, something that requires Logain doing it and killing Rand and having Rands death set the DO free "his blood shall set [Shai'tan?] free" so that when Logain is balefired it's all undone, that's the important part. THe how of making Rand's life and the small or no hole related is where T'A'R is required. The Wise Ones warned that bad things can happen, and maybe I was hoping that the ultimate "bad thing" of both dying and freeing the DO was that "bad thing", maybe I'm being overly optimistic.
Callandor: 2005-06-11
**It was my understanding that the presage to the bore was just a thin spot and that today it still was just a thin spot, and that it's just thinner than it was when Mierin first found it. Imagine a balloon and someone pushes a pencil into it, not enough to pop it, but right at the pencil the balloon is thinner.**
No. The Bore is everywhere at once. It is only felt at Shayol Ghul, because the Pattern is thinnest there.
**Counter evidence for this theory comes from other who think that the DO has a separate prison beside the pattern itself, a prison made by the DO out of stuff that isn't part of the pattern.**
It is so. The Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the moment of creation -- before there was a Wheel, before there was a Pattern, before there was anything. The Pattern is not his prison in anyway.
free will: 2005-06-12
**It was my understanding that the presage to the bore was just a thin spot and that today it still was just a thin spot, and that it's just thinner than it was when Mierin first found it. Imagine a balloon and someone pushes a pencil into it, not enough to pop it, but right at the pencil the balloon is thinner.**
No. The Bore is everywhere at once. It is only felt at Shayol Ghul, because the Pattern is thinnest there.
I happen to agree that the bore is everywhere at once based on RJ interview answers. (e.g. "In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected."-RJ). To muddy the water, the previous statement in the interview is "A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between." so saying that a shield is like the bore could be implying that the bore is both everywhere, and also at a single point as well as also everything in between.
But the real points through, are whether Shai'tan has another prison besides the pattern and/or whether the bore is a hole or a thinness. The BWB says flat out "the hole they created has ever after been known as the Bore", so I think the "SG is a thinspot and the Bore is a hole (everywhere)" theory is an excellent call, the thin spot at SG simply allows the sensing of the Bore.
But what about Shai'tan's prison? The BWB also says "The emanations [...] were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered [Shai'tan's] prison" which implies that the pattern does cover the prison. The BWB says that "Meirin and the team bored through to the source of the Power emanations ... It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside the pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation."
So we can infer that the source was the place outside the pattern, the prison itself. Which is interesting, because I'd previously naively assumed that the True Power was a power of Shai'tan's making, not of his prison.
So the pattern covers the prison and the prison is the True Source seems to be the most literal reading of the BWB. As is the reading that there are literal holes everywhere in the pattern, but those holes could also allow pattern based connections to the prison, as I mentioned in one of my cases, or maybe the holes are true holes, but the Bore is still a connection. Because it sounds like the bore hasn't affected Shai'tan's prison, he is still quite stuck, he merely has an avenue to affect the world while still being bound. The placement of the seals was feared to set Shai'tan free, so presumeably channeling at the bore (which probably has to be done at SG or SG in T'A'R to sense the bore) can set Shai'tan free, and so presumeably doing so is the goal of Shai'tan. Apparantly the Forsaken were not up to doing so because that aparrantly is not what they were doing during the strike. Maybe that's because a failed freeing could seal the bore just like vice versa, or maybe the Forsaken refused to link and it requires a deft touch (same thing really).
**Counter evidence for this theory comes from other who think that the DO has a separate prison beside the pattern itself, a prison made by the DO out of stuff that isn't part of the pattern.**
It is so. The Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the moment of creation -- before there was a Wheel, before there was a Pattern, before there was anything. The Pattern is not his prison in anyway.
Callandor, I'm covering every case. Some of the cases will be wrong. [...]You provided zero textual evidence to support your claim that binding happened "before" a wheel or a pattern was created. Pretending that you have facts is different than having facts Callandor, and I'm not trying to insult you, I just would honestly prefer that when you post you make it clear what is based on evidence and what is your personal opinion.
My theory was written to be robust, so I covered many cases. In the case where there is pattern plus prison plus Creator plus Shai'tan, then Meirin and team bores an outright hole, which uncovers the prison, and they also bored not just through the pattern to make the holes but all the way "through to the source" which is revealed as the prison itself, and since the OP is pattern based (you agree, right?), that's a pattern connection from pattern to prison, but not a large enough connection to allow Shai'tan to be free. If Shai'tan were falsely made free as decribed in my theory and he were in the pattern and stuck, my theory continues that Shai'tan could retreat to the prison and sever the connections between the prison and the pattern when severing the connections between himself and the pattern. Whether this is by using the prison the Creator was so kind to leave Shai'tan for "just such an occasion" or by directly utilizing his vast powers of "all bets are off" that RJ gives him when in the pattern, it doesn't matter. The point is that the bore is pattern based and so subject to balefire and Shai'tan is not pattern based and hence not subject to balefire. If he stayed in the pattern might become vulnerable. If he were then balefired himself would he be reborn? Replaced with Fain? I don't know, I don't think we'll find out because I think he would go back to his prison and be safe for another turning.
The theory is Logain kills Rand and sets Shai'tan free, then Logain is balefired and Shai'tan is stuck and Shai'tan destroys the bore to avoid being part of the pattern. Do you have any actual evidence against it, or merely against "some of the cases" I considered while I considered every possibility? Because since I came to roughly the same conclusion for each case, the only real counter-argument is if I left out a possible case.
Callandor: 2005-06-13
**Callandor, I'm covering every case. Some of the cases will be wrong. [...]You provided zero textual evidence to support your claim that binding happened "before" a wheel or a pattern was created. Pretending that you have facts is different than having facts Callandor, and I'm not trying to insult you, I just would honestly prefer that when you post you make it clear what is based on evidence and what is your personal opinion.**
Excuse me for believing you can carry knowledge over from one thread to another. To requote again, for at least the 5th time:
**BWB: The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 1 - The Wheel and the Pattern
"The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it--as well as the plan for the Great Pattern--and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Even those who are [i]ta'veren[/i] can only alter, but not completely change, the weave. It is believed that if he escapes his prison, the Dark One, being a creature or force beyond creation, has the ability to remake the Wheel and all of creation in his own dark image. Thus each person, especially each of those born [i]ta'veren[/i], must struggle to achieve his or her own best destiny to assure the balance and continuation of the Great Pattern.**
At the moment of creation... before there was anything... like the Wheel, the Pattern, reality, time, you know those basic things.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-06-13
Free Will, I do feel an interesting knott of ideas behind Your theory, but missfortunately it is too much of a convoluted knot. I'm still not sure I understood some of your major statements.
1. Are you stating, that the Bore is Pattern-based, or it is one of the possible many cases you cover? If you are stating it, then what exactly is your argumentation for it? Is your argument the statement that nothing outside the pattern could be affected by those who are inside the Pattern, or you have also another proofs?
If your argumentation is the last, then I would ask you, why do you think that people inside the Pattern cannot affect things outside the Pattern? I don't remember any directly stated limitation against such possibility. It is known that DO cannot free himself without human assistance and DO is clearly stated to be outside the Pattern. Freeing DO is definitely affecting him, and a very significant sort of affecting him, I'd say. One could counterargue that freeing DO could be an indirect affect from doing something to some Pattern-based entity. But even in this case something inside the Pattern (even if not directly a human) does have some effect on DO (who is outside the Pattern). In all cases a Pattern-based object does affect an out-of-pattern entity, i.e. your main argument (if it is really your argument) is not accurate.
2. Are you stating that the Bore was actualy never drilled, but only half-drilled as a sort of pressure on the Prison? Or you agree that the Bore was drilled but it needs to be wider? Or your statement is something else? In any case I'm not sure how exactly does your theory explain the changes in the state of the DO's Prison with it's following list of stages: 1. Before Mierin: there is a thinness in the Pattern (Mierin discovered BEFORE drilling the Bore) and no Bore; 2. After Mierin's drillig and before LTT sealed it: there is a Bore and significant interventions of DO in the world, but yet not enough for him to get free; 3. After LTT's sealing and before the Seals begin to weaken: DO still has some degree of influence in the world but significantly less than earlier; 4. now, when the seals get weaker; 5. in the Last Battle when DO gets free. Do you mean that all that changes are only different degrees of "pressure" on the Prison? If so how the actual deeds of DO inside the world are to be explained? How could DO have any influence in the world if the Bore is not drilled to the end?
Also are you implying that the infamous "thinness in the Pattern" IS identical with the Bore itself? If so, than what did Mierin when she discovered the thinness and after that "drilled" the Bore? Also Demandred in the Prologue of LoC seems to think about the "thin spot" and the Bore as about two different things:
~quote~***Even after all his visits--and the first well over three thousand years in the past--Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.***
So Demandred is saying that the "thinness" in located at "this place" (=Shayol Ghul), but the Bore is not located at "this place" and it is as far from "this place" as from any other place.
3. Are you stating that the Bore will be destroyed only if DO himself destroys it (for to prevent being caught in the Pattern in the case of the balefire effect)? It is the most intriguing of your ideas and I like it. However DO will be acught in the Pattern if he steps inside of the Pattern and becomes part of it. If DO breaks free, he will either step in the Pattern and become patrially part of it, or he will destroy/alter the Pattern without coming inside it. In the first case he will be caught in the Pattern at least in some sense. In the second case he will be still invulnerable from any events coming from the Pattern (including balefire). But you seem to imply that first somebody has to kill Rand for to free DO, and then Rand's killer has to be balefired for DO to feel threatened to be caught in the Pattern and to motivate him to severe the Bore. Why balefiring the prerequisites for freeing DO will catch Him in the Pattern? I see no sense in it, because it will either remove DO's integration in the Pattern or it will undo some changes DO would make after being freed. In both cases everything will just return to the state before DO's breakout, i.e. with the sealed but existing Bore. So, finally, why would DO destroy his Bore after the supposed balefire? I see no sense in it until now.
4. Are you stating that Rand's death is what is needed to free DO? If so, what in the books made you to think so? You seem to quote a prophecy, that I don't remember, can you specify the location of this quote for to investigate the correctness of it's contextual meaning. The prophecies do say, so long I can understand it, that Dragon's bllod shed at Shayol Ghul will free the world from the DO, and this is very very different from freeing DO. If for freeing DO is needed only to kill Rand in Shayol Ghul, then why the prophecies say that the Dragon has to face DO after DO breaks free. Because if you have right (and if I understand you correctly) then either DO will be free or the Dragon will be alive to face him, but not both Do will be free and Rand alive and no balefire would be able to resolve this dilemma. So, are you actually stating that Rand couldn't really face DO because he has to die for DO to get free?
5. You say that Logain has to kill Rand and free DO. Why exactly Logain? Have you anything to prove the choice of Logain for this unpleasant role? Why not any of the Forsaken or the dark minions, why not any Aes Sedai, why not Alivia (about who it is said that she has to help Rand die)? If Logain is designated to be Rand's killer, then how will this fit with Min's viewing about Logain's glory. Because if Logain's great deed is to kill Rand and be balefired, then his glorious deed will be actually unexistent, and that makes it very very difficult for it to become glorious. But Logain is destined to be glorious. Not just important (maybe he could be even very unimportant actually), but so glorious as a man can be. This requires a very well-known and high praised deed - not just important deed (his deed may be very unimportant or even only wrongly supposed to be his deed), but something all the people in the world will think that it is GREAT. I cannot see how your role for Logain will fit in this condition.
free will: 2005-06-13
Callandor: Callandor, you are quite aware that I've read the quotes you provide. I explained that you are adding additional content by assuming that the prison is creation and that the wheel and pattern are a pretty afterthought covered, the cosmic duvay. I obviously disagree. But since you refuse to address the specifics and instead insult me, I'm just going to ignore all posts by you until you apologize, but I'll let you know that I disagree and remind you of the implicit question you ignored: What textual evidence exists to support Callandor's claim that the binding of Shai'tan happened "before" a wheel or a pattern was created.
And I'll remind you that "was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation" doesn't actually say that the imprisonment came "first" and "then" time and then the pattern. That's all you opinion, and you have shown zero evidence to support it. I could pull a random non-christian non-jewish non-muslim man off the street and show them that quote and ask them if they have any evidence that the wheel, pattern, and prison were not made at the same "moment of creation". Christians, Jews, and Muslims might assume that a fictional creator can only create a few things at a time because their creation myths involve an allegedly omnipotent being who spreads out creation over many days, but someone not so biased will not see any evidence to contradict a concurrent creation event. There might be evidence to contradict it, but if so, then you chose to insult me rather than provide it. Good day.
a dragonburned fool:
1. Are you stating, that the Bore is Pattern-based, or it is one of the possible many cases you cover?
Possible case. If the pattern is the prison then it need not be pattern-based. The BWB implies that the prison is the source of the TP, but that is not proof that the source of the TP couldn't be the Pattern.
If you are stating it, then what exactly is your argumentation for it? Is your argument the statement that nothing outside the pattern could be affected by those who are inside the Pattern, or you have also another proofs?
I'm not stating it absolutely, it follows from the case of "If the prison is separate from the pattern". Then the OP has to reach the prison from the pattern, by extending the pattern to reach the prison. Once this happens, Shai'tan can touch those little parts of the pattern that are in his prison and affect things himself. Obviuosly there appears to be some method by which the prison itself could be destroyed from within the pattern, maybe if he pulls it inside enough he could find the key himself, or maybe he has to influence others to do it for him, it really depends on the nature of the prison. My theory was that the pattern couldn't actually breech Shai'tan's prison. So it merely touches the outside. After all the BWB says that Meirin and team bored to the source of the emanations, which the BWB says is the prison not Shai'tan, so Meirin and team did not bore all the way to Shaitan himself. Admittedly I invoked this just to make things work. Specically if only a force outside of creation can undo the Bore, then Rand has to trick or force Shai'tan to do it. Imagine the Fischer-King game. Rand is the Light's Fischer-King, he can free Shai'tan if given no other legal move. Well maybe Shai'tan himself is the Shadow's Fischer-King, if given no other legal move he will destroy the Bore himself. In my theory Shai'tan never really breaks free, so he's still been in there since the moment of creation, even after he removes the Bore. Having the pre-balefire alternative where he gets out in the pattern is just to get him stuck in the pattern to that he'll blast the Bore himself. In case it matters, for the record: I dislike your statment that "nothing outside the pattern could be affected by those who are inside the Pattern" because "could be affected" sounds too passive voice, too vague to agree or disagree even. You can make a pattern bridge between you and your target, and then have a pattern based hand or dagger or web or whatever at the end and have it touch something. The point is that Shai'tan is being kept away from the pattern in this case.
If your argumentation is the last, then I would ask you, why do you think that people inside the Pattern cannot affect things outside the Pattern? I don't remember any directly stated limitation against such possibility.
I'll look up a quote if you need one, but basically the pattern (the weavings of the Wheel as a whole) is supposed to include all possibilities. So something is "beyond possibility" if and only if it is "outside the pattern". Affecting Shai'tan or the Creator without bringing the pattern to the object is as impossible as just waking up and choosing to be either being and becoming them. Not part of the pattern to me just is outright impossible. But this does bring up another point. Rand could attempt to drill an anti-bore. A bona fide Bore to the Creator, or just something that is like the Bore but different (Saidar, True Power, both of those linked, I dunno since I don't think Rand will drill an anti-bore if LTT didn't consider it. Freeing Shai'tan is something I can imagine Rand considering that LTT did not, since it's obviously only a last option knowing that everything else didn't or won't work).
It is known that DO cannot free himself without human assistance and DO is clearly stated to be outside the Pattern. Freeing DO is definitely affecting him, and a very significant sort of affecting him, I'd say.
That's entirely why I disliked your passive voice based negative claim of "could be affected", the point is that to affect someone you first bring the pattern to them, you can affect the pattern, and so if the pattern is brought to them you can affect their options that include entering the patttern.
One could counterargue that freeing DO could be an indirect affect from doing something to some Pattern-based entity. But even in this case something inside the Pattern (even if not directly a human) does have some effect on DO (who is outside the Pattern).
Again, if you bring the Pattern to Shai'tan, you can make him come. If you don't, and he can't come to the pattern (being imprisoned), then you cannot affect each other. Such was the beginning of the Age of Legends.
In all cases a Pattern-based object does affect an out-of-pattern entity, i.e. your main argument (if it is really your argument) is not accurate.
Hopefully you understand better now what I meant. Hopefully you understand how I find your language too vague to even be wrong or right. If you have further questions, please ask again more clearly for my sake.
2. Are you stating that the Bore was actualy never drilled, but only half-drilled as a sort of pressure on the Prison?
I think everyone agrees that Shai'tan is not free. The Bore is defined as the result of the drilling Meirin and team accomplished, which was all the way to the "source of the emanations" (BWB) which was Shai'tan's prison (BWB), so it's "complete" in the sense that I see no evidence that Meirin or anyone else at the time expected or tried to free Shai'tan.
Or you agree that the Bore was drilled but it needs to be wider? Or your statement is something else? In any case I'm not sure how exactly does your theory explain the changes in the state of the DO's Prison with it's following list of stages:
The Bore worked quite fine at allowing Shai'tan to influence the world and letting people access the True Power. It does need to be unclogged to have the same amount of access both ways as in the War of Power, and it does need to be wider to free Shai'tan. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, I wasn't trying to hold anything back.
1. Before Mierin: there is a thinness in the Pattern (Mierin discovered BEFORE drilling the Bore) and no Bore;
Sure, that's a natural thin spot where the prison was and is sensible, and where today the Bore is sensible.
2. After Mierin's drillig and before LTT sealed it: there is a Bore and significant interventions of DO in the world, but yet not enough for him to get free;
So at that point there was a Bore everywhere, and it was sensible at one point. Shai'tan could influence events everywhere.
3. After LTT's sealing and before the Seals begin to weaken: DO still has some degree of influence in the world but significantly less than earlier;
Now you seem to be speculating. The BWB claims that without the madness, the Shadow would be defeated within a few years. So there is simply no evidence that Shai'tan could immediately influece the world ... except in the prologue of book 1, Ishamael is free and can channel the True Power. Of course, it was unclear to me if that was immediately after the Strike at SG. Maybe LTT was crazy for a long while and did kill his family until later, and at that later point the seals weakened enough to allow Ishamael out and have access to the True Power. In the Trolloc Wars a thousand years later, Shai'tan did not shield male Dreadlords from the Taint. Was that a choice or was he not able? Maybe his hand was weak. When M describes Aemon's defense of the People of the Mountain Home, there is a power with the banner of the Shadow, but I thought that was Ishamael, maybe Ishamael had limited support from Shai'tan until well after the Trolloc wars, just him and protection from the Taint and access to the TP and little else.
In short, I see no evidence that immediately after the sealing and Tainting (which I think was laid at the same time, not a response started after the sealing was done) that Shai'tan had any influence on the world. Maybe the madness bought the time Ishamael needed to still have Shadowspawn left alive by the time Ishamael finally broke free? So I disagree that I have to meet that requirement. But more generally this laundry list timeline seems unconnected to my theory as each point is well known and not inconsistent with my theory and I can't figure out why you think my theory is or would be inconsistent with the laundry list.
4. now, when the seals get weaker;
3 and 4 are a continuum, Shai'tan is getting more and more influence on the pattern, bubbles of evil might have happened often in history and just now are more frequent or farther from SG.
5. in the Last Battle when DO gets free.
Shai'tan might not get free, or might not get free until after the Last Battle if Rand looses.
Do you mean that all that changes are only different degrees of "pressure" on the Prison?
I don't know what you are talking about. If the pattern is the prison, then the hole(s) can be made larger, be covered, and be made smaller. If the Bore is a bridge between the pattern and the prison, then the bridge can be stronger, longer, shorter, and/or wider.
If so how the actual deeds of DO inside the world are to be explained?
Carefully. Shai'tan isn't human, so human thoughts aren't always accurate, even understanding him is too much sometimes. Plus he is outside of time, that's hard to describe. All he's done so far is influence the pattern. And that's all within time because the pattern is time. So what "deeds" are you talking about? The True Power? That's done by someone else, who is connected to Shai'tan. Marking the Chosen? That's a deed, but again they came to SG and helped, to bring as close a connection as possible, and obviously Shai'tan influenced the pattern to have the pattern mark them as his Chosen. Ressurection? Again, an influence on the pattern. Everything is. He can influence the pattern either because the pattern is his prison and he can put bitty finger tips through the weaves to affect them, or because there is a pattern based connection from his prison to the pattern that he can shake about. Either way, he can tug threads to cause things that otherwise wouldn't happen.
How could DO have any influence in the world if the Bore is not drilled to the end?
To what end? If the pattern is the prison, then all the Bore can do is get wider, there is no destination of the Bore, just a pattern, an "outside the pattern that is bound by the pattern" and an "outside the pattern that is not bound by the pattern" and Shai'tan wants to go through the pattern to get from one outside to the other.
If there is a separate prison that is not the pattern, then the bore currently goes right up to the prison because the prison is the Source of the emanations and that is what Meirin and team were after. That's obviously enough contact to allow influence, but it doesn't allow totally influence, for instance not enough influence to directly allow enough connection to let him leave the prison himself. And in that case the Bore can be extended to actually breach rather than touch the prison, or to strengthen, shorten, widen enough to allow Shai'tan to leave with the prison still intact. Either way, the Bore can be changed to allow Shai'tan to be free, but right now it the right size and shape to have some influence.
Also are you implying that the infamous "thinness in the Pattern" IS identical with the Bore itself?
I was implying that one case allows that the Bore is a magnification of the original thinness. Maybe everywhere is currently as thin as SG used to be, and SG is even thinner now than before the Bore.
If so, than what did Mierin when she discovered the thinness and after that "drilled" the Bore?
I honestly have trouble with verb-free prose and peotry analysis in general. If the Bore is a thinness, then Meirin could have thinned everwhere even more, as I describe above.
Also Demandred in the Prologue of LoC seems to think about the "thin spot" and the Bore as about two different things:
~quote~***Even after all his visits--and the first well over three thousand years in the past--Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.***
So Demandred is saying that the "thinness" in located at "this place" (=Shayol Ghul), but the Bore is not located at "this place" and it is as far from "this place" as from any other place.
Imagine a big and mostly-level beach with a depression. Consider that to be pre-Bore, and SG is low enough that there and only there is any influence by Shai'tan possible because only there is the altitude low enough, and even so, there is still so much sand that Shai'tan can only affect senses and only display impersonal potential (power emanations), so Meirin gets a team to brign the sand low. Rather than digging a hole to make that one point lower she wants the power to be accessible. After all, the whole point of the Bore was to surpass the limitations of the One Power, not to replace them with the limitation of being stuck at one point. So she reduces the level of sand everywhere equally, so it remains shallower with a depression at SG, she lowers the rest of the world beyond what SG used to be because she wants the TP accessible everywhere, when they reach a low enough level where the TP is accesible everywhere, they stop. At which point Shai'tan can now influence the weaving of the pattern, if only enough to start the War of Power.
In such a scenario, "the Bore" is that lowering (replace "height of sand" with "thickness of the pattern") which is equally everywhere. SG is still the thinnest spot. If Shai'tan were free and loose in the pattern, it's fair to say that it's possible that SG would not seem special in any way. The Bore is everywhere, but RJ also said that it was at a single point and everything in between. My sand analogy works to explain that if thickness matters and the Bore reduces thickness everywhere then the thinness is everywhere, but also at a single point and the Bore is absolutely everywhere.
3. Are you stating that the Bore will be destroyed only if DO himself destroys it (for to prevent being caught in the Pattern in the case of the balefire effect)? It is the most intriguing of your ideas and I like it.
I think it probably takes a force outside of the pattern to remove the bore (otherwise LTT wouldn't have bothered with just a patch/sealing), so unless Rand wants to Bore to the Creator and ask for help, getting Shai'tan to do it seems easiest.
However DO will be acught in the Pattern if he steps inside of the Pattern and becomes part of it. If DO breaks free, he will either step in the Pattern and become patrially part of it, or he will destroy/alter the Pattern without coming inside it. In the first case he will be caught in the Pattern at least in some sense. In the second case he will be still invulnerable from any events coming from the Pattern (including balefire). But you seem to imply that first somebody has to kill Rand for to free DO, and then Rand's killer has to be balefired for DO to feel threatened to be caught in the Pattern and to motivate him to severe the Bore. Why balefiring the prerequisites for freeing DO will catch Him in the Pattern?
Another grammar nightmare so I'm sorry if I accidentally answer a quesiton other than what you intended, and if I say something you don't understand always feel free to ask me to clarify by pointing out the unclear parts. But this time I'll just take a guess at your intended meaning and reply to that, so if it doesn't make sense please remember to just ask it again and check the grammar carefully. So Rand wants Shai'tan to remove the Bore. So he wants to get Shai'tan in the pattern. Letting Shai'tan remake the entire pattern without entering isn't acceptable to this plan, so Rand can't leave Shai'tan with that option. If Logain frees Shai'tan and Shai'tan doesn't enter the pattern, then you can balefire Logain and undo whatever Shai'tan did to the pattern and all it costs you is a Logain, no other consequences. If Shai'tan enters, then jackpot, you get him to remove the Bore. It's best to get him to choose to enter. Maybe Logain can make a Bore to the Outside not on the side with Shai'tan and place a dead Rand there and then Logain breaks the seals and Shai'tan has to enter to get at Rand to have Rand free him. Then balefire Logain, Rand is alive and in the pattern, Shai'tan is trapped in the pattern, the seals are fixed and Shai'tan is stuck. Shai'tan will likely risk staying in the pattern for a while to get the seals to break them, but since he'd then be vulnerable, Rand only has to defend the seals long enough to scare Shai'tan into removing the Bore, then the battle is over.
I see no sense in it, because it will either remove DO's integration in the Pattern or it will undo some changes DO would make after being freed. In both cases everything will just return to the state before DO's breakout, i.e. with the sealed but existing Bore.
The pattern will be undone, so again seals and Bores and such, but Shai'tan's entering of the pattern won't be undone so he'll then be stuck. It's up to Shai'tan to get unstuck, and the plan only works if the only way for him to get unstuck is to remove the Bore.
So, finally, why would DO destroy his Bore after the supposed balefire? I see no sense in it until now.
To be free of the pattern. So Logain and Rand will have to get Shai'tan tricked enough to get him stuck, otherwise Logain is dying for nothing.
4. Are you stating that Rand's death is what is needed to free DO? If so, what in the books made you to think so? You seem to quote a prophecy, that I don't remember, can you specify the location of this quote for to investigate the correctness of it's contextual meaning. The prophecies do say, so long I can understand it, that Dragon's bllod shed at Shayol Ghul will free the world from the DO, and this is very very different from freeing DO.
It's not required. I'm trying to get "to live you must die" from beyond the doorway, "Logain's glory" from Min, and some basic facts about the Bore and Shai'tan to work together to figure out how Rand can orcastrate getting a prison like the creator made. It's easiest if the old prison is used and if Shai'tan is never actually really free, then the Creator did most of work before the novels started. That would work if the Bore can be undone. I hypothesize that Shai'tan could remove it, and figure out how Rand could make Shai'tan want that. It's partly based on the game with the Fischer-Kings that Moridin plays, Rand has to put Shai'tan in a place where the only acceptable moves are what gives Rand victory. Rand needs Shai'tan to remove the Bore, Shai'tan needs Rand to free him. That kind of a thing, it's not air-tight or water-proof, but it's not shabby either.
If for freeing DO is needed only to kill Rand in Shayol Ghul, then why the prophecies say that the Dragon has to face DO after DO breaks free.
I'm unfamiliar with any quote where Shai'tan has to be free before the Dragon fights him. RJ has said that if Shai'tan were free that all bets are off anything can happen. Do you have a quote that says "First Shai'tan is free, then the Dragon fights him"? If so, can you please share it with us?
Because if you have right (and if I understand you correctly) then either DO will be free or the Dragon will be alive to face him, but not both Do will be free and Rand alive and no balefire would be able to resolve this dilemma.
Balefire would resolve it 100 percent. You see, if Rand is killed by Logain and Logain is balefired, then Rand being dead is just a memory, it never *really* happened. Whereas Shai'tan entering the pattern is entering the pattern, and balefire wouldn't affect that because Shai'tan is outside of the pattern. At this point he's in the pattern but not free. If he were free, all bets would be off and so theorizing isn't productive. But I doubt RJ would do that because if he says "the DO is free and so all bets are off and then amazing things happen" then it's just too cheesy. If the DO is free and doesn't kick stupendous a** then it's anti-climactic so I just don't think RJ would do that. Hence, no offense, I am skeptical about your quote about Shai'tan breaking free. At least my theory has a qualified breaking free where he's in the pattern but also sealed too. That's why I like it, it gives me leeway to have werid things, and yet puts Shai'tan at a handi-cap so if he looses it's because the plan worked, not because Shai'tan wasn't a real threat and would have messed up had everyone been a Darkfriend and solely helped him every step of the way.
So, are you actually stating that Rand couldn't really face DO because he has to die for DO to get free?
I didn't say has to in general. My theory is about a plan to remove the Bore. Rand dies in the plan if that's what it takes to get Shai'tan to enter the pattern.
5. You say that Logain has to kill Rand and free DO. Why exactly Logain? Have you anything to prove the choice of Logain for this unpleasant role?
I'll likely be shunned from theoryland for saying this, but prove is a very strong word. I don't think I can prove anything without an orcale-verified mechanical proof technique and an oracle-verified set of axioms, and even so I'm not sure. I selected Logain because I thought killing the Dragon is pretty glorious, as is self-sacrifice to defeat Shai'tan.
Why not any of the Forsaken or the dark minions, why not any Aes Sedai
I think the Dragon is required in some way, partly because I don't know why the Chosen didn't free Shai'tan before LTT arrived for the Strike at SG, if others deaths can do it, why wasn't it already done? Maybe I'm reading too much into the Fischer-King game Moridin plays, but it seems that Shai'tan has particular interest in Rand. And maybe it's a self-fullfilling propechy, that only with Rand "dead" will Shai'tan feel it is "safe" to enter the pattern. What if Rand dies and his soul goes over to Shai'tan? Then Shai'tan might think it is safe and that the prophecies that Rand can stop him don't apply anymore. Rand becomes important because Shai'tan thinks he is important. Well, that why in my theory Rand has to die. If you are asking a different question like why can't someone other than Logain do the freeing? Maybe Shai'tan can't tell people how to do it. Maybe only the Dragon knows how, so he wouldn't tell the Forsaken, but only someone he trusts. Someone who can be balefired later. Someone he'd sacrifice. Maybe Logain will volunteer. Maybe Logain will come up with this plan. Could the theory go through with someone else? Sure.
why not Alivia (about who it is said that she has to help Rand die)?
Why not both? As long as balefiring Logain is enough to stop the death, that's what counts. Multiple people can help, no problem.
If Logain is designated to be Rand's killer, then how will this fit with Min's viewing about Logain's glory. Because if Logain's great deed is to kill Rand and be balefired, then his glorious deed will be actually unexistent, and that makes it very very difficult for it to become glorious.
The glorious deed will be dying to free the world from Shai'tan. That's pretty glorious. Killing Rand won't be real, and also (thankfully), destroying the seals will not be real either. But dying to defeat Shai'tan, that's real, and glorious. To me.
But Logain is destined to be glorious. Not just important (maybe he could be even very unimportant actually), but so glorious as a man can be. This requires a very well-known and high praised deed - not just important deed (his deed may be very unimportant or even only wrongly supposed to be his deed), but something all the people in the world will think that it is GREAT. I cannot see how your role for Logain will fit in this condition.
I wish I could figure out what you can't see. He dies to save the entire world! Is that trite? Mundane? Unimportant? I don't think so. Maybe he jumps in front a large balefire beam and saves an entire city while he's at it! Plus glory can misplaced. Like maybe Logain has to dress up like Rand and get killed by Shai'tan and the deal is that others have to dress up like Logain and do cool stuff everywhere, that Logain asks for glory and praise for stuff he doesn't do so that he can die in disguise helping the cause of the Light even though most people will never know what he sacrificed. These things can work into my theory just fine.
raistlin: 2005-06-15
my god that musta taken a while LOL
I love the points you've mentioned because you actually back them up and give a comprehensive breakdown of why you think what you do.
I admit that anyone can look at a given piece of text and assume completly different things.
You say though: I think it probably takes a force outside of the pattern to remove the bore (otherwise LTT wouldn't have bothered with just a patch/sealing), so unless Rand wants to Bore to the Creator and ask for help, getting Shai'tan to do it seems easiest.
Surely though players in this age have done things that noone else has done before- avienda's un picking of the gateway in front of Ishy/moridin, the healing of the Stilled and obv cleansing saidin. SOOOOOO following on from this it would be natural to assume that maybe Rand could in effect heal the breach thus sealing of DO forever.
And then we have herid fel speaking to Rand about tarmon gaidon:
Herid says it will not really be the Last Battle: Because the Wheel of Time turns, there will come a time again when the Dark One's prison is whole and no one even remembers him. No one can do what the Creator did, yet somehow the prison will get back to the way it was in the Age of Legends
so he will seal it but it will still be thin again so mierin can again find it- OR IS THE BARB THAT THE PATTERN WILL NOW COME TO AN END AND THE WORLD WILL CARRY ON ON A LINEAR FUTURE RATHER THAN CIRCULAR???? also supporting the theory that maybe the heroes will all be spun out fully grown as birgitte was ripped out??
thanks for bearin with me :-p
ThunderWalker: 2005-06-15
A couple of comments. Regarding the quote:
*and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.*
To me this sort of implies that the creation of the Wheel was required to imprison the DO. No creation, no prison.
Before creation, the DO was free. At the moment of creation (big bang), he is trapped. Two step process. Before and after creation.
Callandor says:
*At the moment of creation... before there was anything... *
That doesn't really make sense. "At the moment of creation" is "now". "Before there was anything" is the "past". Now != past.
My second comment is this. The Creator and the DO are not part of the pattern. The pattern was created to bind the DO (perhaps as a side affect, or maybe a "kill two birds with one stone" thing -- create, but bind the DO so he can't interfere).
Boring a "hole" into the DO's prison makes a connection between the prison, and the world. If the DO comes out of his "prison" into the world, he will *still* be trapped in the pattern. However, from within the "World" portion of the pattern he has more freedom. While in the part that is not his prison, he may be able to unmake the pattern to get free, or re-weave the pattern so that he can escape (if he has some reason for the pattern to continue to exist. Maybe just for the fun of corrupting the Creator's creation). On the other hand, the non-prison part of the pattern could still inhibit his power, and he still needs help by someone who is part of the pattern to destroy/change the pattern so he can escape.
Anubis: 2005-06-15
Heres my problem with the theory. We know that if two people were to Balefire eachother both would be gone, because Balefire exists independant of paradox. We also know that the Dark One is outside the pattern. Meaning he has no thread, is not affected by the wheel or Ta'veren (at least not in the traditional sense), etc. So Logain frees the Dark One. Dark One gets out of his prison and goes.... wherever. Hes free to touch the pattern, but hes still not a part of it. Rand gives Logain a healthy dose of the Balefire. This restores the seals. But who is to say that the Dark One is put back in his prison? He exists outside the pattern so it would not be unreasonable to say that he is not affected at all. Of course only RJ can tell you for sure, but it sure seems like alot to risk.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-16
raistlin: In general, I like your idea. It would have to be a completely new discovery with the OP that will trap the DO. Or it could be using both males and females to trap the DO, but it will be fundamentally different from the AoL. I still think the wheel will continue turning though. Nothing has told us that Rand is special, so I assume that means that he is part of the cyclical pattern of the wheel and so are all the events tied to him. And also I think you said something that made a lot of since. That Rand couldn't remake the pattern around the bore completely, and the reason is that he is not the creator. I think he will try as best as he can to remake the pattern at SG, but it will be slightly thinner, which will result in scenario for the bore in the future turnings of the wheel.
clocklotion: 2005-06-17
I was just thinking about something. Logain is at the Black Tower and so far we are still waiting to see what this great glory that Min saw is going to be. Well the Amyrlin Seat of the White Tower is one of the most esteemed and respected positions in the world so who's to say that Logain will not become the next M'Hael and actually make the Black Tower the male Tar Valon and the M'Hael position as glorious as the Amyrlin Seat?
WCDWarder: 2005-06-17
The substance of this theory seems to be something other than a theory about Logain freeing the Dark One. It rings more to me as a theory on how the last battle will be fought. And to be honest, I just don't get it, despite all of the discussion. If I read it correctly, you are saying that the Dark One is freed by Logain, and then Logain is balefired by Rand. As a result, the Dark one is caught in the bore itself.
All of this presupposes that the Dark One is not part of the pattern. But why isn't he? It appears to me that the Pattern has repeatedly considered him by turning out the Dragon everytime he is needed to defeat the Dark One. In fact, the Pattern may be part of the problem so to speak, because it is required to bring the Dark One back into power so that the battle could rage again. And if the Dark One is not part of the pattern, how can he be trapped by the pattern, i.e. by the seals?
All of this makes the theory that the pattern may be scrapped for linear time after the last battle an interesting theory. Has anyone explored this with analysis from the Fourth Age histories? If so, I would love to read the theory. If not, I may look at it myself.
free will: 2005-06-17
who's to say that Logain will not become the next M'Hael and actually make the Black Tower the male Tar Valon and the M'Hael position as glorious as the Amyrlin Seat?
That's entirely possible. When I look at how few books are left in the series and how many things have to be resolved, it seems like separate possibilities must come together, but there are big problems (or at least open sections) of my theory. For instance, isn't Rand doomed to fail unless Mat and Perrin are with him? That implies an essential role, which I just can't figure out. They are all ta'veren, so maybe it's just being in the same place matters, or maybe they have to do things while Rand is dead before Logain is balefired that become essential for victory after Logain's actions are undone. Obviously Rand can't do that himself, being temporarily dead, so he'd obviously need their help for those essential tasks, but what exactly those essential tasks are is still left undetermined at this point by my theory.
Callandor: 2005-06-17
**My second comment is this. The Creator and the DO are not part of the pattern. The pattern was created to bind the DO (perhaps as a side affect, or maybe a "kill two birds with one stone" thing -- create, but bind the DO so he can't interfere).**
No. The Pattern is reality for the Age. That is all. It bears not at all on the Dark One's prison. The Dark One's prison was established by the Creator, and seperate of the Pattern.
Regarding your analysis of one sentence -- it's worded bad.
The Dark One was imprisoned at the moment of creation by the Creator. Before that moment, there wasn't anything but the Creator and the Dark One. No Wheel, no Pattern, no One Power, nothing but them. Hence, why that moment is creation -- it created all those things.
Narianna: 2005-06-18
this idea has been bandied about clocklotion .
but an even more glorious position would be as the modern day Tamyrlin
reuniting both the black and white towers.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-18
Narianna: I actually think that will happen, because the Seanchan and the CotL are after them. So the only way for the channelers to survive would be to unite. So the circumstances kind of force them along that path.
golem22: 2005-06-20
As i understand in book 11 reality itself begins to unravel, perhaps taveren are important because of there warping effect on reality. Which is why they all three must be together inorder to do battle with the dark one?
a dragonburned fool: 2005-06-20
free will: ***"...it follows from the case of "If the prison is separate from the pattern". Then the OP has to reach the prison from the pattern, by extending the pattern to reach the prison. ... I dislike your statment that "nothing outside the pattern could be affected by those who are inside the Pattern" because "could be affected" sounds too passive voice, too vague to agree or disagree even. You can make a pattern bridge between you and your target, and then have a pattern based hand or dagger or web or whatever at the end and have it touch something."***
I like the idea that DO becomes able to affect the Pattern because some factor form inside the Pattern extends the pattern to touch the Prison. My hypothesis about the nature of the Bore is that it is not so much a negative thing, a hole, but rather a link, a bridge, a short-circuit. I have the feeling that even your original interpretation of the Pattern being extended to the Preison would work better in the case that the Pison is not the Pattern and it is separate from the Pattern. In this case the extending to the Prison and thus touching between two dimensions would make a lot of sense.
I still don't agree that from the case "if the Prison is separate from the Pattern" follows an unability of Pattern-based thing to affect the Prison. It is just never said that beings or entities from inside the Pattern cannot affect things outside the Patter. It is said that nothing inside the Pattern can control the Pattern itself, but even so there is a method for people from inside the Pattern to have some degree of negative effect on the Pattern. This method is known as balefire. Balefire doesn't control the pattern, it doesn't create anything positive, but it is a means that in too large amount could even unravel the Pattern itself and to destroy the reality. So when it is said that people from inside the Pattern cannot affect the Pattern, that must mean something that excludes cases like the balefire, i.e. it must mean that humans cannot affect the Pattern in a positive and controllable manner, but they can cause negative chaotic effects with unexpectable for the originators consequences.
***"basically the pattern (the weavings of the Wheel as a whole) is supposed to include all possibilities. So something is "beyond possibility" if and only if it is "outside the pattern". Affecting Shai'tan or the Creator without bringing the pattern to the object is as impossible as just waking up and choosing to be either being and becoming them."***
The Pattern doesn't include the possibility of Shaitan breaking free (there is no Mirror world including that), but such case is possible to happen. Therefore, when it is said that the Pattern includes all the possibilities (in the forms of if-worlds), it means apparently all the possibilities when no factor outside the Pattern comes in the game. The Pattern is designed as a closed system and every internal possibility of it is controllable by it. But there is a force independent of this closed system, and it is a force that by some conditions can affect the closed system thus making it not so closed. So some possibilities appear for the Pattern that are not it's internal possibilites. Because the Pattern and another dimension (DO) have to interact, the most likely manner of their interaction would be that both sides have to participate. It is like the cases (e.g. game, conflict, partnership) that two free persons have to interact (no matter if they would interact as partners or as opponents or else) - the effect would be inpredictable for both sides (any side could have very good chances, but not 100%), but it will be an effect for both. It is also like a conversation: one person originates the conversation, the other replies, but there is any conversation only if both of them participate and act as two agents independent of each other. In any other case what would happen would be not a conversation. Applied to the case with the Drilling the Bore. Mierin IMO couldn't drill the Bore if DO wanted not to be freed and would not "help" (e.g. by providing the TP Mierin sensed and desired to channel - RJ said that TP can be sensed only by those whom DO explicitely permitted that for each singular case). Shaitan from the other side couldn't "help" if he wouldn't be first "called" by Mierin. Input both from Pattern and DO is needed, so the effect (drilling the Bore) is not an internal possibility for both parties. Mierin did something "impossible", because what she did was only part of the "drilling" that wouldn't work without DO's input (e.g. letting Mierin sense his TP).
***"But more generally this laundry list timeline seems unconnected to my theory as each point is well known and not inconsistent with my theory and I can't figure out why you think my theory is or would be inconsistent with the laundry list."***
Here I have to appologize about not clearly asked question. Actually I wanted to ask about the relation between the thin spot on the Pattern (that was natural before the Drilling) and the Bore). The changes in the Bore's state are very significant in the time, but the thin spot at Shayol Ghul seems to remain constant. You answered actually this question quite well later in your post.
The good idea about the Bore as a "bridge" would work best if the Pattern and the Prison are different things that need to be "bridged".
***"He can influence the pattern either because the pattern is his prison and he can put bitty finger tips through the weaves to affect them, or because there is a pattern based connection from his prison to the pattern that he can shake about. Either way, he can tug threads to cause things that otherwise wouldn't happen."***
"Influence" or "deed" in all cases it is something originated by DO and having place in the world. TP deeds are caused by channelers, but for that to happen DO must first grant the permission to use TP for every case - DO's deed is this granting. DO corrupted human conscience all over the world in the first decades after the Bore - it may be called an influence or deed, but it is a direct affect on the Pattern because minds are also part of the Pattern. And I don't understand how DO could affect the Pattern "because" it is his Prison. In the bre-Bore state he was unable to do anything to this supposed "prison".
***"If the pattern is the prison, then all the Bore can do is get wider, there is no destination of the Bore, just a pattern, an "outside the pattern that is bound by the pattern" and an "outside the pattern that is not bound by the pattern" and Shai'tan wants to go through the pattern to get from one outside to the other."***
So you are stating that there are two separate "outsides". I'm not sure that the Pattern would be able to be a boundary between two "outsides", because this idea relies too much on a spatial metaphor (a hollow sphere that separates too "void" areas), but the interrelation between the Pattern and DO is not spatial (for space is something belonging to the Pattern and Do it outside the Pattern). But even if the Pattern is somehow a boundary between two "outsides", then what would be the other "outside", DO wants to go in? There is no reality outside the Pattern except Do and the Creator, so does it mean that DO wants to go to the Creator for a chat? RJ describes DO as a "control freak", but what would seek a control freak outside of any controllable reality?
***"I was implying that one case allows that the Bore is a magnification of the original thinness. Maybe everywhere is currently as thin as SG used to be, and SG is even thinner now than before the Bore. ... In such a scenario, "the Bore" is that lowering (replace "height of sand" with "thickness of the pattern") which is equally everywhere. SG is still the thinnest spot."***
That clarifies the case a lot. Especially it "thin" means not "less real" (in which case the world after the Bore is less "real" than it was in AoL) but rather "loose" in sense of "not so strictly determined by internal rules". So drilling would be not like the unravelling of the Pattern (making it less in quantity). It's something I maybe could accept as an option. So the thinness would be a "hole" not so much in sense of "nothing in the middle of reality" but rather a "breech in a defense". I still don't like it, but now it could be considered as a possibility. It seems to be a very sophisticated way for Demandred to think about this situation in the words he used (instead to use a closed to mind expression of the situation
And I don't like it mainly because it seems to stress DO's hostility to any Pattern, while all DO's influences seen until now arenot removing reality but twisting it into another order (especially well seen in the Blight and Bubbles of Evil). Do seems not to destroy but to infect reality. In that case Do's influence would require not less amount of Pattern, but a Pattern that is more "open" to him.
RJ described Do as a "control freak". What DO really likes is the control. For to control anything, first this anything must exist. The Pattern is all the reality besides the Creator and DO, so unless breaking free will give DO the chance to control the Creator (that sounds too much like too wild speculation), then if DO destroys the Pattern, he will have nothing to control. So I don't believe that DO wanted to annihilate the Pattern and go throught it to some void "outside" at the other side. It is never said that DO want to destroy the Pattern, but that he wants to destroy the Wheel. The Wheel is not equal to the Pattern, the Wheel is the control mechanism of the Pattern. If DO wants to control the Pattern, he has to replace it's original control mechanism with his own control, i.e. to replace the Wheel with something else. If DO's growing influence in the world is equal to decreasing the amount of the Pattern, it would actually mean that he has less objects to influence, i.e. it would be against his (implied by my view on the things) main desire.
***"The pattern will be undone, so again seals and Bores and such, but Shai'tan's entering of the pattern won't be undone so he'll then be stuck. It's up to Shai'tan to get unstuck, and the plan only works if the only way for him to get unstuck is to remove the Bore."***
It is a very subtle theory and unfortunately it was not clear enough until now. So discard all my previous questions about how balefire will help the situation - all they were asked in the context of my previous not-understanding of your statement. Your statement is that the balefire undoes all the Pattern around DO, but it doesn't undo DO's presence in the Pattern after he came inside, right? It is something I have never imagined it could be an option now, and I never thought about any other consequence of balefiring Rand's killer besides DO occuring again outside the Pattern as he was before the complete breaking of the seals. Now it seems we can disagree about the same question. :)
I don't agree that if Logain is balefired, DO will be stuck in the Pattern. DO cannot be undone by balefire, but his placement inside the Pattern can be undone. It is like balefiring a human: his soul is not destroyed, i.e. the human soul is not undone by balefire and will be reborn later; but the thread (replace "the human's placement in the Pattern") is undone. If in the Pattern there is anyhting "eternal", persisting in different times and different threads (like a soul), this eternal entity is no more placed in the Pattern after the balefire. This wilol be also applied to DO entering the Pattern. He is eternal and cannot be undone, but his presence inside the Pattern is a sort of thread depending on other threads. If the cause for his presence in the Pattern is balefired, then his presence will be also gone. DO can be inside the Pattern only if the Patterns holds him (like a platform in the skimming space is holding the voyager) - destroy the Pattern under his feet and DO will fall out of the Pattern and return to the state before breaking the seals. Logain will die for nothing.
***"I hypothesize that Shai'tan could remove it, and figure out how Rand could make Shai'tan want that. It's partly based on the game with the Fischer-Kings that Moridin plays, Rand has to put Shai'tan in a place where the only acceptable moves are what gives Rand victory. Rand needs Shai'tan to remove the Bore, Shai'tan needs Rand to free him."***
I also think that the best scenario is cause a spielzwang to DO and make him want to remove the DO in the context of the sha'rah game. But I don't think that it could be achieved by balefiring Rand's killer, because I don't agree that this balefire will have the effect on DO you are expecting.
My guess is, that Rand in facing DO will somehow make the world basically uncontrollable (like fatally damaging world's "gear" in unrepairable way) by anybody (and by DO) unless DO removes the Bore and hopes that he will have better luck when the Wheel makes a full turn and another Mierin drills another Bore. Such uncontrollable world would be maybe as great disaster for the world as DO's victory, but DO wouldn't want it, because DO is a control freak and he wants to have the world on a tight leash. DO is patient (because he is outside time) and he would maybe prefer to wait for the next turning of the Wheel than to have the only toy in the universe broken before he gets it.
***"The glorious deed will be dying to free the world from Shai'tan. That's pretty glorious. ... I wish I could figure out what you can't see. He dies to save the entire world! Is that trite?"***
No, I said that "glory" ipmlies being well-known. I can think about false or misplaced glory but not about a secret glory. A secret deed may be more important and more heroic and more deserving to be glorious than any other deed, but the one who performed this heroic secret deed will not have glory. For to have glory, the world must know about your deed. But if the deed is to be balefired, then this deed goes invitably into the obscure.
free will: 2005-06-20
I like the idea that DO becomes able to affect the Pattern because some factor form inside the Pattern extends the pattern to touch the Prison. My hypothesis about the nature of the Bore is that it is not so much a negative thing, a hole, but rather a link, a bridge, a short-circuit. I have the feeling that even your original interpretation of the Pattern being extended to the Preison would work better in the case that the Pison is not the Pattern and it is separate from the Pattern. In this case the extending to the Prison and thus touching between two dimensions would make a lot of sense.
OK, I was just trying to cover all the bases.
I still don't agree that from the case "if the Prison is separate from the Pattern" follows an unability of Pattern-based thing to affect the Prison. It is just never said that beings or entities from inside the Pattern cannot affect things outside the Patter.
I believe the BWB says that the Wheel touches other possibilities, and maybe I stretched it to say that the pattern covers all possibilities, so that therefore anything creatures within the pattern do is possible therefore again within the pattern. So for instance I thought that you could bore to the prison, but since Shai'tan is outside of the pattern you couldn't force him to drink no matter how much water you bring him.
It is said that nothing inside the Pattern can control the Pattern itself, but even so there is a method for people from inside the Pattern to have some degree of negative effect on the Pattern.
You can't affect those larger things like the Lace of Ages or the Web of Desitny. You can affect some stuff, but only Shai'tan or some such could make a radical change beyond the overall big plans of the Wheel. So for instance I don't think Rand could make time go linear, but I think Shai'tan could.
This method is known as balefire. Balefire doesn't control the pattern, it doesn't create anything positive, but it is a means that in too large amount could even unravel the Pattern itself and to destroy the reality.
Naw. I'm not an expert on modal logic, but I think if you went balefire happy that something bad would happen to you first. Like remeber when the three false dragons all had accidents at the same time. Since you can't control the entire pattern, I don't think you can unravel the pattern unless the pattern wanted you to unravel it, which based on circular time, I think it's a safe bet that it doesn't want that.
So when it is said that people from inside the Pattern cannot affect the Pattern, that must mean something that excludes cases like the balefire, i.e. it must mean that humans cannot affect the Pattern in a positive and controllable manner, but they can cause negative chaotic effects with unexpectable for the originators consequences.
I think your quotes are just loose. Here's an example of a real quote: "No one inside AND OF THE PATTERN can [ ... ] change the destiny of the Great Pattern [emphasis added]". The Great Pattern will specifically create new ta'veren to stop anyone that messes with the Great Pattern's destiny. Any can affect the pattern, it's the Great Pattern that is untouchable.
***"basically the pattern (the weavings of the Wheel as a whole) is supposed to include all possibilities. So something is "beyond possibility" if and only if it is "outside the pattern". Affecting Shai'tan or the Creator without bringing the pattern to the object is as impossible as just waking up and choosing to be either being and becoming them."***
The Pattern doesn't include the possibility of Shaitan breaking free (there is no Mirror world including that), but such case is possible to happen. Therefore, when it is said that the Pattern includes all the possibilities (in the forms of if-worlds), it means apparently all the possibilities when no factor outside the Pattern comes in the game. The Pattern is designed as a closed system and every internal possibility of it is controllable by it. But there is a force independent of this closed system, and it is a force that by some conditions can affect the closed system thus making it not so closed. So some possibilities appear for the Pattern that are not it's internal possibilites. Because the Pattern and another dimension (DO) have to interact, the most likely manner of their interaction would be that both sides have to participate. It is like the cases (e.g. game, conflict, partnership) that two free persons have to interact (no matter if they would interact as partners or as opponents or else) - the effect would be inpredictable for both sides (any side could have very good chances, but not 100%), but it will be an effect for both. It is also like a conversation: one person originates the conversation, the other replies, but there is any conversation only if both of them participate and act as two agents independent of each other. In any other case what would happen would be not a conversation. Applied to the case with the Drilling the Bore. Mierin IMO couldn't drill the Bore if DO wanted not to be freed and would not "help" (e.g. by providing the TP Mierin sensed and desired to channel - RJ said that TP can be sensed only by those whom DO explicitely permitted that for each singular case). Shaitan from the other side couldn't "help" if he wouldn't be first "called" by Mierin.
I think we are super close to agreeing and maybe we already agree. I think that Meirin can drill the Bore all she wants, by making a pattern bridge to the prison, but she can't make Shai'tan touch the world. And similarly Shai'tan can want to touch the world all he wants, but because of the prison he needs Meirin or someone to make a Bore first.
Input both from Pattern and DO is needed, so the effect (drilling the Bore) is not an internal possibility for both parties. Mierin did something "impossible", because what she did was only part of the "drilling" that wouldn't work without DO's input (e.g. letting Mierin sense his TP).
That's where I/we disagree. I think she could Bore, but not release the Shadow, she could build a bridge, but Shai'tan has to cross it.
***"He can influence the pattern either because the pattern is his prison and he can put bitty finger tips through the weaves to affect them, or because there is a pattern based connection from his prison to the pattern that he can shake about. Either way, he can tug threads to cause things that otherwise wouldn't happen."***
"Influence" or "deed" in all cases it is something originated by DO and having place in the world. TP deeds are caused by channelers, but for that to happen DO must first grant the permission to use TP for every case - DO's deed is this granting. DO corrupted human conscience all over the world in the first decades after the Bore - it may be called an influence or deed, but it is a direct affect on the Pattern because minds are also part of the Pattern. And I don't understand how DO could affect the Pattern "because" it is his Prison. In the bre-Bore state he was unable to do anything to this supposed "prison".
I can't figure out what you are saying, sorry. There were two cases. Case one the prison is the pattern and he can't influence it because the weave is too tight and he can't get a grip, sorta like the pattern is too slippery for his manipulations. In the second case he couldn't affect it because he was separated from it. In the first case, they made holes which give him some grip, enough to make a little bit of impact, but he can't use all his power. In the second case they made a bridge so that he could reach, but like the holes, the size isn't enough for his full gifts to come to play. In either case the prison gets in his way because the Bore isn't enough to give him the freedom he needs because it doesn't alter the nature of his prison enough.
Does that help? Cause I couldn't follow your response at all. Imagine being inside a slippery slippery ball, if someone puts holes in it, then you can start grabbing it and shaking it and bending it and maybe break it, but before you just could have any productive impact at all.
***"If the pattern is the prison, then all the Bore can do is get wider, there is no destination of the Bore, just a pattern, an "outside the pattern that is bound by the pattern" and an "outside the pattern that is not bound by the pattern" and Shai'tan wants to go through the pattern to get from one outside to the other."***
So you are stating that there are two separate "outsides". I'm not sure that the Pattern would be able to be a boundary between two "outsides", because this idea relies too much on a spatial metaphor (a hollow sphere that separates too "void" areas), but the interrelation between the Pattern and DO is not spatial (for space is something belonging to the Pattern and Do it outside the Pattern).
There is already a concept of a space beyond the pattern, the wheel is outside the pattern. I know people like to say that there are only two things outside the pattern, but actually if you read pages 14 and 16 the universe has at least 5 things: The creator, the pattern, the wheel, the OP, and Shai'tan (and maybe a sixth, his prison). Since Shai'tan is not in the pattern there is a place that is elsewhere to the entire pattern. The Wheel and the OP are also elsewhere of the entire pattern, so I see no evidence for your claim that space is something belonging to the Pattern, in fact Time is specifically claimed by the Wheel as being assigned to the pattern, space is compeletly absent when it could have been mentioned, and a prison is a storng sense of a place, as is imprisoned, trapped, and outside. I don't think we can conclude that there must be two sides, but I also don't think you are correct to say that there is no space outside the pattern. I'd say that there is no spacetime outside the pattern since I'm find with there being no time outside the pattern. But space is more open based on what I've read.
But even if the Pattern is somehow a boundary between two "outsides", then what would be the other "outside", DO wants to go in? There is no reality outside the Pattern except Do and the Creator, so does it mean that DO wants to go to the Creator for a chat?
Yes I imagine that he wants to be on the other side. Not for a chat, since these are being beyond time who I doubt would have chats.
RJ describes DO as a "control freak", but what would seek a control freak outside of any controllable reality?
Freedom. The pattern itself limits Shai'tan. He wants to not be subject to limits and control. He wants to be everywhere, do everything. It's more like entropy than destruction. I think Shai'tan would prefer to move beyond "seeking" or "controlling" and instead do his timeless stuff that is beyond such temporal based descriptions.
***"I was implying that one case allows that the Bore is a magnification of the original thinness. Maybe everywhere is currently as thin as SG used to be, and SG is even thinner now than before the Bore. ... In such a scenario, "the Bore" is that lowering (replace "height of sand" with "thickness of the pattern") which is equally everywhere. SG is still the thinnest spot."***
That clarifies the case a lot. Especially it "thin" means not "less real" (in which case the world after the Bore is less "real" than it was in AoL) but rather "loose" in sense of "not so strictly determined by internal rules". So drilling would be not like the unravelling of the Pattern (making it less in quantity). It's something I maybe could accept as an option. So the thinness would be a "hole" not so much in sense of "nothing in the middle of reality" but rather a "breech in a defense". I still don't like it, but now it could be considered as a possibility. It seems to be a very sophisticated way for Demandred to think about this situation in the words he used (instead to use a closed to mind expression of the situation
I don't find Demandred's comment strange, so I worry that maybe I misunderstand you or you misunderstand me. Why is Demandred's comment strange. SG was a thin spot. It is still thinner than other spots today. The Bore affects all points in space equally. If may have done this by loosening the pattern, making little holes, or by thinning it, but it did what it did everywhere.
And I don't like it mainly because it seems to stress DO's hostility to any Pattern, while all DO's influences seen until now arenot removing reality but twisting it into another order (especially well seen in the Blight and Bubbles of Evil). Do seems not to destroy but to infect reality. In that case Do's influence would require not less amount of Pattern, but a Pattern that is more "open" to him.
What Shai'tan wants is freedom. I think he'd pass through the pattern if he could and not care if it lived or died, he's beyond time. He has to aim for a barrier that he can pass through, to do that he's been influencing the pattern. What else can he do? At this point he lacks enough influence to destroy the pattern of the wheel, so he's been doing what he can ... to get free.
RJ described Do as a "control freak". What DO really likes is the control. For to control anything, first this anything must exist.
We disagree, Shai'tan existed indepedently of the pattern, so MUST not require a "thing" to control, if he did, then he'd be the creator of a dark pattern. So let's look carefully at what RJ said to see what he really meant: "He is also highly distrustful. He ... dislikes ... things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn.", so he dislikes things that he doesn't control. He basically hates and doesn't trust anything that isn't himself, for you are what you control. He doesn't need things to distruct or control, he doesn't like other beings other things things he doesn't control. You've likely met people in your personal life that are like this mentally. They want everything to make sense, they want to control the mental orangization of their knowledge. Sometimes denial is a weapon they use to do so. The DO isn't just that way about his ideas, but about everything. Everything has to be according to his will. But he was happy being alone, he didn't feel any desire to create a world. So I think you assumed too much about the ur-control freak comment.
The Pattern is all the reality besides the Creator and DO, so unless breaking free will give DO the chance to control the Creator (that sounds too much like too wild speculation)
Hey, no such thing as too much wild speculation, RJ said that if Shai'tan breaks free that all bets are off, all bets. Of course I already pointed out that Shai'tan presumably could have created his own universe and choose not to.
then if DO destroys the Pattern, he will have nothing to control. So I don't believe that DO wanted to annihilate the Pattern and go throught it to some void "outside" at the other side. It is never said that DO want to destroy the Pattern, but that he wants to destroy the Wheel. The Wheel is not equal to the Pattern, the Wheel is the control mechanism of the Pattern. If DO wants to control the Pattern, he has to replace it's original control mechanism with his own control, i.e. to replace the Wheel with something else.
We disagree. The OP drives the Wheel which defines the Great Pattern, specially it's all been set up to imprison Shai'tan, that's why I'm not even sure that there is a separate prison. The point is that Shai'tan has to control the Wheel to change the Great Pattern to allow himself to not be imprisoned. It's the means. You are calling the means the ends and citing his motivation to acheive the means. Which obviously to me is evidence that he wants the ends. That's why we see the same data and come to different conclusions. I say that he wants to be free entirely. Why? Go back to the ur-control freak quote. Shai'tan dislikes anything that he doesn't control. So using that data, ask youself: would he be happy to control the Wheel? The wheel spins out heroes and ta'veren to take the threads controlled by people and guide them to the overall shape of the of the Great Pattern. So the Wheel shares power with the people in creation. Shai'tan would hate that. He'd be sharing control with people. He'd be spinning out ta'veren and heroes to fix stuff that *ahem* free will messes up. A never ending dealing with control issues. I think maybe you imagine that control freaks just happen to like conrolling things. I disagree. Control freaks are weak, they can't deal with not being in control. They don't enjoy controlling, they dislike not being in control. It might seem subtle to you, but it's a very very important distinction.
If DO's growing influence in the world is equal to decreasing the amount of the Pattern, it would actually mean that he has less objects to influence, i.e. it would be against his (implied by my view on the things) main desire.
Very loose speech. Amount of the pattern? I'm not following with you, but since I disagree that Shai'tan enjoys controlling, I'd guess that whatever you are saying I'd disagree with it. I think that Shai'tan wants free. I think there is an elsewhere where he'd be free. I think that he controls because he dislikes not being in control not because he likes to control.
***"The pattern will be undone, so again seals and Bores and such, but Shai'tan's entering of the pattern won't be undone so he'll then be stuck. It's up to Shai'tan to get unstuck, and the plan only works if the only way for him to get unstuck is to remove the Bore."***
It is a very subtle theory and unfortunately it was not clear enough until now. So discard all my previous questions about how balefire will help the situation - all they were asked in the context of my previous not-understanding of your statement. Your statement is that the balefire undoes all the Pattern around DO, but it doesn't undo DO's presence in the Pattern after he came inside, right?
Yes, I think that's the same as what I was saying. The seals are back and in fact always there, it's a basically a giant trick to get Shai'tan to enter the pattern and get stuck in it.
It is something I have never imagined it could be an option now, and I never thought about any other consequence of balefiring Rand's killer besides DO occuring again outside the Pattern as he was before the complete breaking of the seals.
I think the difference relates to the other end too. Like you think that Meirin could only Bore with Shai'tan's help, whereas I think that if you balefired Lanfear that Shai'tan's touch would still be on the pattern, but maybe the connection to touch again would be gone.
Now it seems we can disagree about the same question. :)
What question are we disagreeing about?
I don't agree that if Logain is balefired, DO will be stuck in the Pattern. DO cannot be undone by balefire, but his placement inside the Pattern can be undone. It is like balefiring a human: his soul is not destroyed, i.e. the human soul is not undone by balefire and will be reborn later; but the thread (replace "the human's placement in the Pattern") is undone.
Balefire is extremely complicated, I hope we don't have to get into anything complicated. If the pattern appears to be such that Shai'tan wants to enter it, but it was a trick, then he's still entered. The only way he'd not enter is if he had his own actions undone. No one can IMO make Shai'tan enter the pattern, so I don't think the pattern can unweave the actions of Shai'tan and make him choose differently, his actions stick. And it's not really worth debating because RJ said that if Shai'tan enters "all bets are off", so nothing either of us says can be definative. Either you find my argument convincing, plausible, appealing, or such or you don't. But neither of us can convince the other about what would "really" happen if Shai'tan entered the pattern, because we both know that RJ said all bets would be off. So let's not argue about it. We could both be right. My theory is that I'm right. I think the plausability comes down to Rand not being able to imprison Shai'tan because that's the Creator's job, or for him to affect Shai'tan, since he is outside the pattern and all. So we'd have to trick Shai'tan into doing it himself. There is much indirect evidence for this, like paper Rand's in the future. But balefire is a good way to trick Shai'tan. I could be wrong, but I'm not really open to anything else until I read another theory that explains how Rand could do the Creator's work and/or affect a being outside of time and the pattern.
If in the Pattern there is anyhting "eternal", persisting in different times and different threads (like a soul), this eternal entity is no more placed in the Pattern after the balefire. This wilol be also applied to DO entering the Pattern. He is eternal and cannot be undone, but his presence inside the Pattern is a sort of thread depending on other threads.
I heartily diagree that Shai'tan would be a thread. Threads are parts of the pattern. He is not. Even after entering, he is not a part, he is outside, and that is what gives him is super powers. To go back to the spatial anaology, he isn't a 1D object like a thread, he's not even a 4D pattern like a section of a pattern, he's a 5D object, like the Wheel. See how the Wheel affects the pattern but isn't a thread. That's what Shai'tan is like, a higher dimenional object that affects the whole pattern in ways that threads cannot. As an object he could get stuck based on how the pattern is positioned around him, but he is not and never would be part of or a thread in the pattern. If Shai'tan were a thread, then he'd be affected by ta'veren, no sorrry I can't even take it seriously, he'll like the WHEEL. The wheel is not a thread, who cares that it is eternal, it doesn't matter if it's eternal, it's outside the pattern.
If the cause for his presence in the Pattern is balefired, then his presence will be also gone. DO can be inside the Pattern only if the Patterns holds him (like a platform in the skimming space is holding the voyager) - destroy the Pattern under his feet and DO will fall out of the Pattern and return to the state before breaking the seals. Logain will die for nothing.
We diagree, and I don't even know what your alternative is for how the Bore and prison and Shai'tan influence and such can be undone.
***"I hypothesize that Shai'tan could remove it, and figure out how Rand could make Shai'tan want that. It's partly based on the game with the Fischer-Kings that Moridin plays, Rand has to put Shai'tan in a place where the only acceptable moves are what gives Rand victory. Rand needs Shai'tan to remove the Bore, Shai'tan needs Rand to free him."***
I also think that the best scenario is cause a spielzwang to DO and make him want to remove the DO in the context of the sha'rah game.
I missed that. You want Shai'tan to remove himself?
But I don't think that it could be achieved by balefiring Rand's killer, because I don't agree that this balefire will have the effect on DO you are expecting.
I understand that you disagree. Your arguement that "If in the Pattern there is anything "eternal", persisting in different times and different threads (like a soul), this eternal entity is no more placed in the Pattern after the balefire. This wilol be also applied to DO entering the Pattern. He is eternal and cannot be undone, but his presence inside the Pattern is a sort of thread depending on other threads." is that anything eternal that is inside the pattern is a "sort of thread" is acts like all other threads under balefire is just an opinion. And even if it were correct I could modify my theory to include a special kind of balefire that is designed to exactly undo things accept Shai'tan. Why not? Sure it's new, but people have invented new stuff. And sure it seems cheap, but I don't see much alternative to tricking Shai'tan into doing the majority of the work. He has to be tricked somehow, and if you don't like regular balefire for the job, then maybe we need a special balefire. Otherwise I don't see how Rand can do the Creator's job for him.
My guess is, that Rand in facing DO will somehow make the world basically uncontrollable (like fatally damaging world's "gear" in unrepairable way) by anybody (and by DO) unless DO removes the Bore and hopes that he will have better luck when the Wheel makes a full turn and another Mierin drills another Bore. Such uncontrollable world would be maybe as great disaster for the world as DO's victory, but DO wouldn't want it, because DO is a control freak and he wants to have the world on a tight leash. DO is patient (because he is outside time) and he would maybe prefer to wait for the next turning of the Wheel than to have the only toy in the universe broken before he gets it.
I'm happy to finally see an alternative theory that you like. Of course since I don't think that Shai'tan enjoys controlling things, I disagree with you because if Rand did that then I imagine Shai'tan would just step in and destroy the pattern or the wheel and/or the prison and go his merry way. Plus it's hard to imagine something unrepairable. Moridin could balefire Rand and the pattern would be fixed. Unless that's why Rand has to die, to have his actions become not reversable by balefire. I was concerned that your theory didn't explain Rand's death, but if you add that he has to die to make it irreversable then I'm with you. Of course it only has to appear irreverable long enough for Shai'tan to patch the prison (so it'd have to also be in danger of getting worse if it's to stop the Shadow soon, otherwise Shai'tan could conquer all the worlds first and remove the Bore later). Once the Bore is done, then Rand's killer could be balefired and Rand would be back. In this case Logain could kill Rand and Logain be balefired, as long as Shai'tan doesn't know that Rand's death can be undone.
***"The glorious deed will be dying to free the world from Shai'tan. That's pretty glorious. ... I wish I could figure out what you can't see. He dies to save the entire world! Is that trite?"***
No, I said that "glory" ipmlies being well-known. I can think about false or misplaced glory but not about a secret glory. A secret deed may be more important and more heroic and more deserving to be glorious than any other deed, but the one who performed this heroic secret deed will not have glory. For to have glory, the world must know about your deed. But if the deed is to be balefired, then this deed goes invitably into the obscure.
I can't fathom your concern at all. Balefire has zero affect on memories. If you kill someone and everyone sees you do it and then you get balefired when no one is looking where the body is, then everyone hails you as a hero that killed that guy, even if that guy is alive. Only those that understand balefire, know the backburn and calculate carefully (or see the guy come back from the dead) will know that the deed went undone. No trumpets announce what is undone by balefire. Besides, the real action is getting Shai'tan trapped, that's a specific deed that his death would case, not a secret deed at all, it would be seen and known and real and remembered and not undone at all.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-20
a dragonburned fool: I like your explanations for why this theory couldn't work. I do agree with you that the DO wants to control the pattern. And now that I think about the thinness and the bore, I have another I idea that seems logical in my mind. Think of the pattern as a cloth, and the DO is on another piece of cloth. Maybe the bore is not so much of a hole as it is a tear. And what Mierin did is tear the pattern at the thinnest spot and use it to try and connect him to the pattern. Then the seals were made to protect some weave that imperfectly severed the connection of the DO from the pattern, only partly undoing what Mierin did. This means that it would take less effort than before to make the connection again, and so the DO can use his powers to weaken the seals. Then Rand will come in there and break the seals, and completely repair the tear. As a result, the pattern will be thinner there and will slowly repair itself through the weaving of the pattern until the next turning when the bore is drilled again(which it might not be completely repaired because it could be a very slow process). To me this makes logical sense because humans can not control the age lace, ta'veren can twist the pattern around them all they want, but they can't completely create or destroy(balefire only partially destroys a thread). If you see any fundamental flaws with it, just point it out.
free will: 2005-06-22
JakOShadows, the fundamental problem with your proposal is that if Rand could fix the Bore better just by breaking the seals and doing something different than making new seals, then why didn't LTT do it three or four thousand years earlier? To me that indicats that what actually works has to seem insane enough that even LTT wouldn't have considered it, but a partially mad Rand would, ironically that means that the taint would be a necessary component of defeating Shai'tan. That's totally the kind of irony I think the Creator (fictional or RJ) would use against Shai'tan. I'm open to your suggestion that something sane be done instead, but I'd demand that you first explain why LTT didn't consider it 3 or 4 thousand years ago.
Callandor: 2005-06-22
**JakOShadows, the fundamental problem with your proposal is that if Rand could fix the Bore better just by breaking the seals and doing something different than making new seals, then why didn't LTT do it three or four thousand years earlier?**
Because there were two proposals in the Hall of Servants -- one was Lews Therin's plan to use the seals, the other was a proposal (I forget who actually started it if it is mentioned) to use the Choedan Kal to set up a barrier around the Bore with the One Power. Lews Therin's plan was considered far too rash and dangerous, so Latra Posae Decume convinced all the women who were strong enough to take part in his plan (because the placing of the seals needed to be precise, and it was believed it could not be done without a link of seven women and six men all above average strength in the One Power). This was the Fateful Concord.
Lews Therin's plan was dead in the water -- work on the Choedan Kal was pushed forward until attacks by Sammael and he overran the region where the control statue ter'angreal were being made and they were lost; armies commanded by Demandred and Be'lal then attacked the regions where the giant statue sa'angreal were built.
Seeing no option left, Lews Therin went forward with his plan without the help of female channelers, and with 113 male Aes Sedai (and 10,000 non-channeling troops I believe), he led the Strike on Shayol Ghul and sealed the Forsaken and Dark One. 68 survived, along with Lews Therin, and they all went instantly insane in the backblast.
a dragonburned fool: 2005-06-23
***Shai'tan existed indepedently of the pattern, so MUST not require a "thing" to control, if he did, then he'd be the creator of a dark pattern. So let's look carefully at what RJ said to see what he really meant: "He is also highly distrustful. He ... dislikes ... things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn.", so he dislikes things that he doesn't control. He basically hates and doesn't trust anything that isn't himself, for you are what you control. He doesn't need things to distruct or control, he doesn't like other beings other things things he doesn't control. You've likely met people in your personal life that are like this mentally. They want everything to make sense, they want to control the mental orangization of their knowledge. Sometimes denial is a weapon they use to do so. The DO isn't just that way about his ideas, but about everything. Everything has to be according to his will. But he was happy being alone, he didn't feel any desire to create a world. So I think you assumed too much about the ur-control freak comment.***
Well, I really missed to consider this interpretation of "ur-control freak", but it is a very good interpretation, I must admit. You have right, it is an imortant distinction and now I see your reasons. DO could really find the existence of anything outside him extremely annoying. DO could hate the existence of the Pattern just because it's annoying for him to have it's oblique mass around him. You may also say that such wanting no activity outside him DO would be a good contrast to the Creator, who likes beings outside him with their own initiative and free will. I'm still in desagreement with you, but now it seems that our disagreement is based mainly on our different impressions about DO's style and about "being control freak". It seesm to be impressions against impressions - something that would allow both possibilities, but every one of us would regard one of them as more likely because the other doesn't fit so well with his summarized impressions.
For to explain my impressions - everything we know about the Shadow until now manifests an extraordinal stress on power-hunger. And too much stress on struggle for power also. Every Shadow's minion is supposed to be ambitious and power-hungry. Pick any Shadow's activity and extraordinary ambition will appear. The Shadow wants for some reason exactly such strong-willed ambitious minions. The Shadow breeds these minions between themselves in the ruthless struggle among them wanting the most capable to survive. There's too much care about effectiveness, strong will, there's too much encouraging of minion's ambitions.
And this is not the only possible effective strategy towards minions shown in the books. The profile of the control-freak who just hates will aroud him, this profile can be seen not so much in the Shadow, but in the Alternative Evil - in Mordeth's Evil. Aridhol died of suspicion of everybody against everybody else. Mordeth seduced them with means to fight the powers they don't want (the Trollocs) without caring about any constraints and feeling themselves completely righteous in this task. When Fain sees something that doesn't make sense for him, he denies it - and his best tools (like Elaida, the Whitecloaks, Thoram Rhiatin) have this trait visibly strong. People whom Fain finds most appropriate for his schemes, like to feel righteous, they like black-and-withe pictures about the world. While in all Shadow's activity the most visible slogan would be "that and that must be achieved", in Mordeth's activity ends are not so visible, but there is extremely stressed the "this is mine - do not mess up". While the Shadow encourages the ambitions of it's minions and so does control them, Fain rather effectively suppresses their ambitions even on cost of their effectiveness, but he encourages their paranoidal feelings and he controls their desires and he encourages their like of denial. So rather Mordeth is the type who hates uncontrollable things outside him more than controlling things. But Mordeth is representant of an Evil that is opposite to Shadow's Evil.
As about why DO haven't created an world if he liked to control, there are enough possible reasons for him to not doing it because he couldn't do it even if he wanted. One such possible reason is the very fact of him being imprisoned by the Creator. Another possible reason is that DO could have no ability to create. This unability could have even logical backup in the consideration that durable creation involves granting some degree of independence to the creation. The less standalone is the creation, less interesting will it be in it's inner structure. When persons have the passion to control things and like this controlling, usually they like the resistence they will cope with into the result (something like Nietzsche's uebermensh who needs vaues to overcome them). But the idea to create the resistence first and then to overcome it doesn't seem too great. Usually people who like to control need something already existing to control it. The very game of the Power with it's dynamic balance of action and reaction, of force and resistence, may make one drunk. When Lanfear mentioned the ecstasy she felt in DO's presence and her belief that everybody will feel this ecstasy it indicates that DO's power is something naturally invoking ecstasy. I wouldn't expect any ecstasy assotiated with the freak who just doesn't like the out-of-control, usually there are bitter feelings assotiated with such people. But control-freaks who like control are easily to be assotiated with ecstasy. Ecstasy requires a "Game" and a "Game" requires an opponent. DO needs the Creator's participation in the Game in some sense.
***That's where I/we disagree. I think she could Bore, but not release the Shadow, she could build a bridge, but Shai'tan has to cross it.***
She wouldn't drill if she wasn't motivated. Her motivation was the Power she sensed and desired to touch. This Power is apparently the True Power, that cannot be sensed unless Shaitan makes a specific permission to the specific person for the specific case. If DO hasn't "invited" Mierin and Beidomdon, they wouldn't even think about drilling the Bore. It was an interaction from the very beginning. From DO's part it was something like transmitting into the void in the hope somebody hears and swallows the bait.
***There were two cases. Case one the prison is the pattern and he can't influence it because the weave is too tight and he can't get a grip, sorta like the pattern is too slippery for his manipulations. In the second case he couldn't affect it because he was separated from it. In the first case, they made holes which give him some grip, enough to make a little bit of impact, but he can't use all his power. In the second case they made a bridge so that he could reach, but like the holes, the size isn't enough for his full gifts to come to play. In either case the prison gets in his way because the Bore isn't enough to give him the freedom he needs because it doesn't alter the nature of his prison enough. Does that help?***
Yes, it does help. If tightness (i.e. too much resistence) of the Pattern is what stops DO, then gaps in the Pattern will give him the needed advantage.
***There is already a concept of a space beyond the pattern, the wheel is outside the pattern. I know people like to say that there are only two things outside the pattern, but actually if you read pages 14 and 16 the universe has at least 5 things: The creator, the pattern, the wheel, the OP, and Shai'tan (and maybe a sixth, his prison). Since Shai'tan is not in the pattern there is a place that is elsewhere to the entire pattern. The Wheel and the OP are also elsewhere of the entire pattern, so I see no evidence for your claim that space is something belonging to the Pattern, in fact Time is specifically claimed by the Wheel as being assigned to the pattern, space is compeletly absent when it could have been mentioned, and a prison is a storng sense of a place, as is imprisoned, trapped, and outside. I don't think we can conclude that there must be two sides, but I also don't think you are correct to say that there is no space outside the pattern. I'd say that there is no spacetime outside the pattern since I'm find with there being no time outside the pattern. But space is more open based on what I've read.***
It is quite debatable, whether the Wheel is in any case outside the Pattern, or it is only Pattern's built-in mechanism of it's own self-control. It is also not sure about OP. Buth whatever is the connection between the Pattern and the Wheel and OP, neither the Wheel nor OP are spatial contructs themselves. The Wheel is represented in a shape of an wheel, but I doubt it's true nature has anything to do with space. One Power is everywhere in the world at the same time and in the Cleansing scene it was described as located a ctually in the very hearth of the world's nature. So it is at least as "inside" the Pattern as it is "outside". Both could be just dynamical aspects of the Pattern. When it is said that DO and the Creator and DO are "outside" the Pattern, it apparently means mainly their independence from Pattern's control. It is never said anything about spatial characteristics of Ctreator and DO. It is not known whether DO has any spatial parameters.
When I said that Pattern is responsible for the space, I came to this idea because of the male method of Traveling. What the male Traveler does is to bend the Pattern, so that the both locations come together. As result he overvomes spatial distance. I.e. space is actually directly manipulated via just bending the Pattern. What more is needed to conclude that space is completely dependent of the Pattern?
***I don't find Demandred's comment strange, so I worry that maybe I misunderstand you or you misunderstand me. Why is Demandred's comment strange. SG was a thin spot. It is still thinner than other spots today. The Bore affects all points in space equally. If may have done this by loosening the pattern, making little holes, or by thinning it, but it did what it did everywhere.***
Demandred's comment is strange, because he is saing that the Bore is far from "here" but the thinness is "here". If the Bore is a relative thinness all over the Pattern, then the "thinness" here will be also part of the Bore. So why would Demandred make a distinction. Wouldn't it be more natural for him to say something like "the Bore is not only here, but everywhere, but here it is stronger and I can feel it"? After all Demandred is speaking from his own point as an observer. It is like saying "this is not the tide of course; the tide is everywhere at the see shores; here at this beach I'm closer the see so I can sense the tide; but of course this here is not the tide". Strange is this form of expressing such an distinction. But if the Bore and the thinness here are completely different things, then there is nothing strange in Demandred's comment.
***I think the difference relates to the other end too. Like you think that Meirin could only Bore with Shai'tan's help, whereas I think that if you balefired Lanfear that Shai'tan's touch would still be on the pattern, but maybe the connection to touch again would be gone.***
Here is where I begin to not understand again. There is either a connection between shaitan and the world or there is no active connection. There is no difference whether a cable is unplugged from one side or from the both - there is just no connection. Until the moment there is a connection, all the things that the both parties have to prepare are only prerequisites. If Shaitan is stuck in the Pattern then it means that the Pattern has some effect on him. If the Pattern has no effect on him, I find no reason to describe this situation as DO being stuck in. DO will be either vulnerable from the side of the Pattern in which case the pattern will touch him, or he will be not touched by the Pattern and so he will be unvulnerable, and if he is unvulnerable, what will he care about.
I can imagine that DO has to make new step when he will enter the Pattern after Rand's death. If Rand's killer is balefired, then DO's move will be like a step in the empty space, and he could decide to move back. But why do you think that he will undo all his part of the Bore but not only the last step? It is possible that for some unknown reason undoing the last step would be impossible without undoing everything else.
Another problem is, that if Shaitan enters in the Pattern, then there are no chances for the Light - so RJ said and you agreed that this means really no bets for Rand's case. If Shaitan gets so much power, then could Logain be balefired? It's right that the case if DO enters has too much unknown in it to argue about, so I don't mind this last question as counterargument against you, but rather as my way to ask you to explain, what means for DO to be stuch in the world (if he is not part of Pattern or if the pattern doesn't hold him), why this is bad for DO, and how the situation when DO comes in the world and all bets are already off, how in this case Logain's balefiring will be still possible? Excuse me if my question are not easy to understand, but it seems that if wee talk enough, even the most convoluted theoretical detail could be cleared. :)
***And even if it were correct I could modify my theory to include a special kind of balefire that is designed to exactly undo things accept Shai'tan. Why not?***
:) Really, why not? But my main problem with this part of your theory will remain even if I agree that the balefire removes everything except DO: Is DO inside the pattern or not in this case? The balefire (or the special weave) removes the Pattern from around him, so if DO is still "there", the Pattern is no more "there". So DO and the pattern will be not together and what would mean for DO to be stuck in the Pattern then? How could he be stuck in something that is not there? For me it seems like logical contradiction, and since I see you are a good logician, this is apparently due to my lack of understanding of the very concept of "stucking in" of DO in the Pattern, you used in your theory.
JakOShadows: 2005-06-23
freewill: I'm sorry about the confusion there. My idea might will require seals too. But mainly I was just pointing out how the previous sealing seemed to be inadequate to trap the DO. And I failed to mention, but the reason could have been that there were no women channelers helping LTT. And it could be good or bad considering the back blast. But it has been mentioned several times the greatest wonders of the age of legends were done with men and women, so I think it would add a lot of strength to resealing the bore if men and women were used. Even if it was basically the same principle involved. I believe Callandor hit the nail on the head this time. The split between the male and female channelers did LTT's plan in.
free will: 2005-06-23
Callandor: Are you saying that when JakOShadows "Then Rand will come in there and break the seals, and completely repair the tear" he meant that Rand will utilize the original Choedan Kal plan that was logistically unavailable to LTT? If I assume you meant that Rand will use the Choedan Kal, then it merely comes down to this time having access to the Choedan Kal, which is a weird thing for everything to depend on, since Shai'tan could surely send Friends of the Dark to physically destroy at least one of the Choedan Kal, right? Or do you believe that Shai'tan needs the Choedan Kal to free himself? If so, then why didn't the Shadow make their own giant statues and finish the job of freeing Shai'tan many years ago? All indicators to me seem to point at something being specifically special about Rand, something's been keeping TG from happening already.
JakOShadows: I'm pleased that you think Callandor hit the nail on the head, but I'd still prefer a direct answer to what will be different than last time and how or why this time it would last longer. It sounds like you're going with the "saidin and saidar used together will make it work" theory, is that correct? Obviously we know that the lack of a retraction of the Fateful Accord prevented that from happening last time, but that doesn't sound momentous enough to rival the work of the creator in imprisoning Shai'tan. But the alternative theory is well defined enough for me to agree to disagree, if that's what you'd prefer.
free will: 2005-06-25
For to explain my impressions - everything we know about the Shadow until now manifests an extraordinal stress on power-hunger. And too much stress on struggle for power also. Every Shadow's minion is supposed to be ambitious and power-hungry.
That's the means to the ends. It is thinking big to blind the eye of the world, to break the wheel, to destroy the pattern, it is ambitious. But he's also the father of lies, I think he let's people assume that he really will let them rule a world that is dominated, when what he asks is for them to help him break free. I don't think Shai'tan will keep that promise. He's too much of a control freak to allow others to rule subject to him, he'll destroy everything, he is the Creator's opposite, but obviously you disagree. So if he's hiding this, and only psuedo setting him free can seal the Bore, then he's done a good job of hiding his weakness, so good job Shai'tan!
And this is not the only possible effective strategy towards minions shown in the books. The profile of the control-freak who just hates will aroud him, this profile can be seen not so much in the Shadow, but in the Alternative Evil - in Mordeth's Evil. Aridhol died of suspicion of everybody against everybody else.
We disagree totally. Aridhol was seduced into using the Shadows tactics against the Shadow, they are a purer form of the Shadow, one without the lies of servant and master that Shai'tan uses.
in Mordeth's activity ends are not so visible, but there is extremely stressed the "this is mine - do not mess up".
The reason Mordeth's ends aren't so clear is because he doesn't have any positive goals. He wanted to resist THE Shadow and his tactics were to not walk in THE Light, so he's walking in his own shadow towards nothing in particular. PF wants Rand dead and would like some revenge, but that's very similar to Shai'tan, except Shai'tan wants to take the revenge out on the Wheel and the whole pattern. PF would do that if he were trapped in a prison by the Wheel and the whole pattern, but that hasn't happened ... at least not yet.
So Mordeth is more like Shai'tan than a Shai'tan dupe.
While the Shadow encourages the ambitions of it's minions and so does control them, Fain rather effectively suppresses their ambitions even on cost of their effectiveness, but he encourages their paranoidal feelings and he controls their desires and he encourages their like of denial. So rather Mordeth is the type who hates uncontrollable things outside him more than controlling things.
Mordeth's denial loving is because he's walking away from the Light and away from being a servent. He simply isn't lying to people about his nihilism. Shai'tan lies. That's the difference. If you bound up Mordeth for a long time such that he needed ambitious help from others in order to be free, then he might start lying too.
But Mordeth is representant of an Evil that is opposite to Shadow's Evil.
Do you have quotes. I read that he used the Shadows tactics against the Shadow. Equal, but opposed. Not opposite at all.
Usually people who like to control need something already existing to control it.
I'd say that the people who like to control of course need someting external because their fundamental problem is not knowing who their are and wanting to remail in denial about who they are, so they take on a monolithic goal of righting others to avoid knowing themselves. I'd say that Mordeth is like that. He destroys others because he doesn't want to know himself, it's reactionary. Shai'tan is too inhuman to tell if he's like that. We don't know what he'd do if he were alone.
The very game of the Power with it's dynamic balance of action and reaction, of force and resistence, may make one drunk. When Lanfear mentioned the ecstasy she felt in DO's presence and her belief that everybody will feel this ecstasy it indicates that DO's power is something naturally invoking ecstasy.
I found the above very confusing. Saidin and Saidar balance each other, action, reaction, but the True Power doesn't and I can't tell what you are talking about. As for Lanfear, she's power obsessed, always was. Shai'tan is a big fat liar and he tells you want you want to hear and then tells you not to talk to everyone else about it. Secret orders. He probably told Ishamael that LTT had been turned and defeated thousands of thousands times, because that was Ishamael's pet theory and Shai'tan tells you what you want to hear. Other Chosen were probably told about what their rulerships of the NWO would be like. Even given a slice of that during the War of Power. But why weren't they busy breaking Shai'tan free during the War of Power? This isn't clear at all to me.
I wouldn't expect any ecstasy assotiated with the freak who just doesn't like the out-of-control, usually there are bitter feelings assotiated with such people.
Most such people are in denial about knowing themselves. We don't know if Shai'tan is like that or not. We know that he needs help and that he lies. So knowing much more is hard. He could easily create ecstasy by using his power and his lack of caring about balance to use a physical brain to experience ecstasy without regard for hurting the brain. Doesn't Semiurge do this? Doesn't she torture with ecstasy? Compulsion works the same way. It's not communion with the ecstatic Shai'tan or Semiurge or compulsion wielder, it's just the effect of the action on the subject, nothing more and nothing less.
But control-freaks who like control are easily to be assotiated with ecstasy.
People who like control like it because it either 1) distracts them, 2) temporarily has an indirect effect that meets their other needs for things besides control, or 3) because they indentify themselves as a controller and are building self esteem through competency regardless of whether the effects are useful to anyone objectively, even themselves. I see no connection to ecstasy.
Ecstasy requires a "Game" and a "Game" requires an opponent. DO needs the Creator's participation in the Game in some sense.
I can't figure out the above at all. You can get ecstasy from drugs, why is a game required. Can't the last person on earth be a junkie? I don't get it (or maybe I just strongly strongly disagree)
free will: 2005-06-25
She wouldn't drill if she wasn't motivated. Her motivation was the Power she sensed and desired to touch.
You assume too much. She didn't sense the Power, just the emanations. If you read the BWB carefully, the emanations come from the prison, not even from Shai'tan.
This Power is apparently the True Power,
Or apparantly according to the BWB, the teamed "bored through to the source of the unusual Power emanations", then ripples through the fabirc of reality start (where for all I know the MWs become less real for the first time) and then they find out that the emanations are Shai'tan's dark energies. It's not the power itself that the sensed, but the emanations, it's like the difference between channeling or embracing and detecting a residue.
that cannot be sensed unless Shaitan makes a specific permission to the specific person for the specific case. If DO hasn't "invited" Mierin and Beidomdon, they wouldn't even think about drilling the Bore. It was an interaction from the very beginning. From DO's part it was something like transmitting into the void in the hope somebody hears and swallows the bait.
I get that you think that. I disagree totally and fully. In the AoL no one felt his touch, so says the BWB. The source gave indications of being useable by men and women equally. No one could use it. It wasn't the power, just the emanations from the prison.
It is quite debatable, whether the Wheel is in any case outside the Pattern, or it is only Pattern's built-in mechanism of it's own self-control. It is also not sure about OP.
Page 13- "A universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern that it spins", the wheel acts on the pattern. And page 15- "The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator [], the One Power [], and the Dark One []", so the OP is obviously distinct from the Wheel or the Pattern.
But whatever is the connection between the Pattern and the Wheel and OP, neither the Wheel nor OP are spatial contructs themselves.
I don't know what you think "space" is, but I know that people have preconceptions about space and get all personal about it. Some will insist that space can't be curved, others will say that space and time can't be a single unit called spacetime, others will object to their being more than three spatial dimensions, others will object to space being an illusion. But in practise space is a concept people use to discuss boundaries, it's about smoothness, continuity, sidedness and such. If you assume that space can only match your macroscopic earth experience then you are already going to disbelieve T'A'R or the Ways or the space between worlds or between dreams, etc. The BWB says that there is a place outside the pattern where Shai'tan is imprisoned.
The Wheel is represented in a shape of an wheel, but I doubt it's true nature has anything to do with space.
The Wheel has to be driven by the OP, which is different than it or the pattern.
One Power is everywhere in the world at the same time and in the Cleansing scene it was described as located a ctually in the very hearth of the world's nature. So it is at least as "inside" the Pattern as it is "outside".
I'm not following you. It's located beyond the Wheel, close to the Wheel, and the Wheel is described as the major controlling factor of the WoT universe. The OP drives the wheel which alters the pattern and the pattern is what everyone inside the pattern sees, except for the channelers who can also sense beyond the pattern to the True Source as well. The energy of the OP is manifested all around everyone because the energy of the OP drives the Wheel and hence all change in the pattern, so everything you see is a result of the OP, but most people can't see the OP at all. Again, this is all in the BWB.
Both could be just dynamical aspects of the Pattern.
Page 15 said that the OP is outside the Wheel and the Pattern, so stop pretending otherwise. If you think the BWB is lying, say so.
When it is said that DO and the Creator and DO are "outside" the Pattern, it apparently means mainly their independence from Pattern's control.
The Wheel's control, not the Pattern's control, maybe I'm just nitpicking there, but I want to be very very clear. The Wheel weaves, the pattern just is. But on page 41 it says "[the source of the emanations was] the PLACE outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned", I added the emphasis on the word "place".
It is never said anything about spatial characteristics of Ctreator and DO. It is not known whether DO has any spatial parameters.
See page 41 of the BWB, that's where it says there are spatial confinements on Shai'tan. Also on page 48 it says "When the Bore was drilled into a place outside the pattern", it also refers to Shai'tan as "a presence" which is a thing that occupies a space, that is present. He's not physical, but he does seem to occupy space, space outside the pattern. In fact his followers (page 49) want him to "come fully into the world", that's a movement, the fully part implies continuity and not suddenness, and strengths the arguement that spatial characteristics apply outside the pattern. The Wheel created Time and the a Pattern, apparantly space already existed and the Pattern didn't and doesn't cover all of space.
When I said that Pattern is responsible for the space, I came to this idea because of the male method of Traveling. What the male Traveler does is to bend the Pattern, so that the both locations come together.
He does no such thing. He bores a hole through his place (that's why he has to know his departure point so well) very carefully and let's the pattern make that hole go to another part of the pattern. Females modify the pattern near them to be like the pattern elsewhere. That's much closer to them "coming together" than the male method. Either way they could Travel outside the Pattern, they just won't have a basis for coming back, they'd be in the Space between Worlds. The pattern is like the thin surface inside of some corragated cardboard, a small movement towards the space between worlds can bridge two points that are far apart staying inside the pattern. The females atract the other point to them by making their location similar, the men push their part of the pattern out towards someplace else. Neither creates space, the space between worlds was alread there. The Creator is never ever attributed with creating space, or the space between worlds. The created the Wheel, and the Pattern and the OP, tops. Not Shai'tan, not space.
As result he overvomes spatial distance. I.e. space is actually directly manipulated via just bending the Pattern. What more is needed to conclude that space is completely dependent of the Pattern?
If space iutself were affected instead of the shape of the pattern in the larger space between worlds then the space between the points travelled to would be affected. They aren't. And the additional thing you'd need to show is that the BWB is written by a liar. They are not affecting the pattern between the points, because they are using the space between worlds.
***I don't find Demandred's comment strange, so I worry that maybe I misunderstand you or you misunderstand me. Why is Demandred's comment strange. SG was a thin spot. It is still thinner than other spots today. The Bore affects all points in space equally. If may have done this by loosening the pattern, making little holes, or by thinning it, but it did what it did everywhere.***
Demandred's comment is strange, because he is saing that the Bore is far from "here" but the thinness is "here".
Are you talking about a different comment? He says that the Bore is everywhere, not that it is far away. Hence the hole is everywhere or the bridge is everywhere because the Bore is everywhere. The thin spot is older than the Bore, it is the Thinnest spot.
If the Bore is a relative thinness all over the Pattern, then the "thinness" here will be also part of the Bore.
The thinness here would be a combination of the original thinness there, plus the newer additional thinness everywhere. He is aware that the special is special in a way that is independant of the Bore.
So why would Demandred make a distinction. Wouldn't it be more natural for him to say something like "the Bore is not only here, but everywhere, but here it is stronger and I can feel it"?
No that would not be natural, not unless lying is natrual for Demandred, because that's wrong. Here's an example. You stand over a deep section of water, do you comment that "the sea level is highest here"? No, the sea level is like the bore, the bore raised the sea level around the globe by adding more water. The place with the deepest sea is still the place with the deepest sea and yes it is deeper, not because anyone made it deeper in that point though. Same with the Bore. The bore is everywhere. If it stacked with the thinness to make a more powerful effect, the Bore is still everywhere, it's the stacked effect that is large, it's not that the Bore had a larger effect there, just that there there are two effects at play.
After all Demandred is speaking from his own point as an observer. It is like saying "this is not the tide of course; the tide is everywhere at the see shores; here at this beach I'm closer the see so I can sense the tide; but of course this here is not the tide". Strange is this form of expressing such an distinction. But if the Bore and the thinness here are completely different things, then there is nothing strange in Demandred's comment.
I don't know what you are talking about, tides are not everywhere, the sides of the earth that are closest and farthest from the moon have high tides, the places in the middle have low tides. Tides are strongest during a total eclispse of the sun, in fact if all the planets and moons were aligned in a line, the tides would be strongest. A tide is not a thing that raises water everywhere. Please look at my example about depth being related to sea level and a previous large depth. That's a better analogy. And it's just not strange to comment that a global affect combined with a local anamoly create a thing that happens nowhere else, that's not weird at all.
free will: 2005-06-25
***I think the difference relates to the other end too. Like you think that Meirin could only Bore with Shai'tan's help, whereas I think that if you balefired Lanfear that Shai'tan's touch would still be on the pattern, but maybe the connection to touch again would be gone.***
Here is where I begin to not understand again. There is either a connection between shaitan and the world or there is no active connection. There is no difference whether a cable is unplugged from one side or from the both - there is just no connection. Until the moment there is a connection, all the things that the both parties have to prepare are only prerequisites. If Shaitan is stuck in the Pattern then it means that the Pattern has some effect on him. If the Pattern has no effect on him, I find no reason to describe this situation as DO being stuck in. DO will be either vulnerable from the side of the Pattern in which case the pattern will touch him, or he will be not touched by the Pattern and so he will be unvulnerable, and if he is unvulnerable, what will he care about.
Did you misquote me? Cause your text is unrelated to the quote. My quote is saying that you could balefire Lanfear and undo the Bore and there would be no more Bore, but it would only change the things she affected in the War of Power, the Bore like other changes to the pattern that she did, would be undone. The touch that Shai'tan had would be his effects, and being outside the pattern and never stuck in it and never bound by the Wheel, his effects would not be undone. There would still be a War of Power in the past, just one without Lanfear. There would be memories about the Bore, but no Bore. The dark one would have touched the world historically because his actions weren't undone, but he would no longer be able to touch the world. That's what my quote was about. Yours is about Shai'tan getting stuck, a totally different situation.
I can imagine that DO has to make new step when he will enter the Pattern after Rand's death.
Make new step? What are you talking about?
If Rand's killer is balefired, then DO's move will be like a step in the empty space, and he could decide to move back. But why do you think that he will undo all his part of the Bore but not only the last step? It is possible that for some unknown reason undoing the last step would be impossible without undoing everything else.
If the Bore is a connection, then to get the entire pattern off him he might have to step into the prison to have it's walls shave off the pattern since the prison is supposed to keep the insides away from the pattern. It's like having honey on you and going to the only shower in the multiverse which takes off everything and you are alone in your shower again. If the Bore is a hole (that is "everywhere") then to get our of the web he might have to create his own prison inside one of the holes that is also inside him and grow it, having it push out the pattern until he's free, in which case he has a brand new prison without any holes, and the pressure on the pattern might fix the holes.
Another problem is, that if Shaitan enters in the Pattern, then there are no chances for the Light - so RJ said and you agreed that this means really no bets for Rand's case.
It's always interesting how people read things differently. See, when I read "all bets are off" I interpret it as "all bets are off" instead of "bets about the Light winning are off, the Shadow wins" which is how you read it.
If Shaitan gets so much power, then could Logain be balefired? It's right that the case if DO enters has too much unknown in it to argue about, so I don't mind this last question as counterargument against you, but rather as my way to ask you to explain, what means for DO to be stuch in the world (if he is not part of Pattern or if the pattern doesn't hold him), why this is bad for DO, and how the situation when DO comes in the world and all bets are already off, how in this case Logain's balefiring will be still possible?
Your question is not easy to understand. You seem to ask how can Logain be balefired if an all-powerful Shai'tan is free but not part of the pattern? And I don't think Shai'tan is all powerful I think he's greater than the Wheel, if he starts to man handle the Wheel, then EVERYONE is free from the wheel, THAT is "all bets are off", for all I know if he's free a two year old could kill him premanently with the splinter of a power wrought sword, or a fetus could permanently kill Shai'tan with a thought. All bets are off means anything could happen. The point about balefire is that if Logain is balefired then Shai'tan wasn't really free because the Bore was never expanded, it means that none of that "all bets are off" really happened, it was just a trick to get Shai'tan to enter the world in a way that exposes him to later attack so that he'll have to fix the Bore to protect his self.
***And even if it were correct I could modify my theory to include a special kind of balefire that is designed to exactly undo things accept Shai'tan. Why not?***
:) Really, why not? But my main problem with this part of your theory will remain even if I agree that the balefire removes everything except DO: Is DO inside the pattern or not in this case?
If he gets free without entering the pattern, then he'd win. I don't think he can do that. In the BWB it says that the pattern covers his prison, so it appears that the pattern is in his way and he'll have to go through it to get anywhere else.
The balefire (or the special weave) removes the Pattern from around him,
No it doesn't. It undoes Logain's actions. That could be undoing making holes larger, so it could cause more pattern to be around Shai'tan. The exact opposite of what you claim.
so if DO is still "there", the Pattern is no more "there".
Shai'tan isn't physical, he's not like a rock that the pattern has to move flow around, Shai'tan and the pattern can coexist in the same location.
So DO and the pattern will be not together and what would mean for DO to be stuck in the Pattern then? How could he be stuck in something that is not there? For me it seems like logical contradiction, and since I see you are a good logician, this is apparently due to my lack of understanding of the very concept of "stucking in" of DO in the Pattern, you used in your theory.
Imagine that there is a weave and that all the threads are bound to the wheel and go and out and the wheel causes the threads to form a pattern. Shai'tan isn't a thread, the Wheel doesn't affect him and he's standing outside of the pattern, and threads in the pattern are considered physcial objects as well as souls, he is not a thread, he is neither physical nor a soul. Imagine that he thinks that the pattern creates a hole and since all around him is a pattern and he doesn't want to be stuck in it, so he leaps towards the image of a hole. Which standing where part of him is where the pattern would be if there isn't a hole he finds out that there isn't a hole, he now has threads passign though him, he doesn't like that because then the wheel can tug the threads and weave around him, he's part of the pattern even though he's not a thread. He has to find something that will remove the pattern from him, and the only thing available that excludes the pattern is the prison, so he has to go back to the prison and bring the parts of the pattern that are connected with him and they get separated from him and he's alone in the prison once more.
Callandor: 2005-06-27
**Are you saying that when JakOShadows "Then Rand will come in there and break the seals, and completely repair the tear" he meant that Rand will utilize the original Choedan Kal plan that was logistically unavailable to LTT?**
I simply stated the pure and simple answer to your question.
You wanted to know why the seals were used -- I told you.
**If so, then why didn't the Shadow make their own giant statues and finish the job of freeing Shai'tan many years ago?**
Why are the Forsaken looking for angreal and sa'angreal?
Because they cannot make them -- very obvious answer there.
Could they have made them in the Age of Legends? Maybe a few could've, but the ones that are alive today can't now, and couldn't then. The ones that could, if they ever existed, died.
**All indicators to me seem to point at something being specifically special about Rand, something's been keeping TG from happening already.**
It's called the Pattern -- or story arc, whether you want to go for Randland answer or real life one.
Anubis: 2005-07-06
**You assume too much. She didn't sense the Power, just the emanations. If you read the BWB carefully, the emanations come from the prison, not even from Shai'tan.**
Yes, and if you read even more carefully then you know that the eminations were the Dark Ones "dark energies". Which would be coming from Shai'tan, and not his prison.