1
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-17
So you are suggesting that Egwene is avoiding the Three Oaths, because she could find the Oath Rod in T'A'R and use it if she really thought they should swear their oaths? The problems I see with this ideas are the following: we don't know that a ter'angreal found in T'A'R can be "utilized" by a person in T'A'R, as it can be in the Real World; second, everything that happens to someone in T'A'R doesn't necessarily correlate to the exact same consequence in the Real World. For example, Moghedien was sure she could make Egwene turn into a pony when she entered T'A'R but she would be herself in the Real World, also, you might get severly burned in T'A'R, but only leave with a slight burn on your skin. In other words, I don't think we have enough information to affirm the idea of using a ter'angreal found in T'A'R for the same purposes it was meant to be used for in the Real World...do we? Theoretically, couldn't Egwene, while in T'A'R, think the Oaths into existence? Anyway, I like this line of questioning about Ter'angreals and T'A'R.
2
Callandor: 2004-03-17
The Bowl of the Winds worked briefly in TAR for Elayne and Nynaeve, but a binder may not. Simply put, we don't know what would happen if they did.
I do not think she means to avoid the Three Oaths. In CoT, she even says flat out that she will be the first to swear the Oath Rod when they have it. Egwene is not really afraid on the Oath Rod's shorting of life, since unswearing them brings them back to their full life span; hence her plan to have retired Aes Sedai go into the Kin after removing them.
I think the opportunity just has to arise and Egwene will do it immediately.
3
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-17
They "use" it, or they "investigate" it? Anyone have a quote?
4
dragonsceptor: 2004-03-17
Egwene cannot mean to just hope that everyone forgets she has not taken the oaths. Sooner or later, people will recognize she does not have the ageless face. However, I do have a thought that may support your theory. Egwene was dead set against taking the oaths and then made a dramatic 180. I have seen it suggested that this is the work of compulsion by Halima because it will hinder the AS ability to fight the forsaken and participate in the Last battle. However, I also think that Egwene subconsciously feels someone is messing with her mind. I don't have any specific quotes but it seems to be the general feeling I get from reading her POV. If this is the case, she could be avoiding the oaths until she discovers more.
5
Callandor: 2004-03-17
Don't know.
**TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 13 - Under the Dust
"Nynaeve," Elayne said slowly, "I think this is...." Nynaeve gave a start and nearly dropped her side of the bowl as it suddenly turned a pale watery blue and the carved clouds shifted slowly. A heartbeat later, the crystal was clear again, the carved clouds still. Only she was certain the clouds were not the" same as they had been.**
Using it would've been helping the weather. Testing it would've been touching it with the Power (which is what obviously happened here). So tested it is most correct I think.
6
udernation: 2004-03-17
I think that perhaps she wants to be oathe-rodded in public, so she's better accepted as aes sedai - we all know the trouble the unoathed aes sedai have been having. its not a question of being able, but rather a question of whether or not she wants to or not...
7
Dorindha: 2004-03-18
She's probably not actually thought of it, and at the moment, it is actually moving around a bit (Pevara et al) so it might even be quite hard to find.
I think the symbolic value of swearing the oaths in "public" is also important so other AS know that it's been done.
8
Darren: 2004-03-18
umm... maybe Egwene just hasn't thought of this.... I sure didn't. What's real in T'A'R is real in the world after all, I think it MIGHT work, but that doesn't mean Egwene thought of it....
I mean, I remember when they tried that broken access key in TAR, and how it resisted being moved, so maybe it wouldn't be as easy (or as wise) as lickety split, but I'm betting that Jordan just hasn't thought of this.
9
Caramoor: 2004-03-18
We have to remember that Aes Sedai culture is based on tradition which contains a lot of rituals. They may tolerate some of the changes that Egwene and group are bringing, but would they change a ritual that defines who an Aes Sedai is. Doubtful.
10
charliec: 2004-03-18
no quote, my books are at home, but they definitely channel breifly into the bowl. Also, the a'dam works perfectly well in TAR.
Whether the Oath Rod's effects would last into the waking world is certainly more controversial, and unclear... I suspect they would (even dream herbs keep people asleep after they've left TAR), but then again it might well backfire or have nasty side-effects, so I doubt they'd use the Oath Rod in the dream.
Secondly- who'd believe them if tehy said "I dreamed using the oath rod, and now I can't lie, honest."?
Also they don't just need to use the oath rod, but also to pass the test, otherwise it'd be no good... that takes hours, and also uses another ter'angreal which may or may not function in the dream.
Nope, Egwene's keen to use the oath rod despite it's effects (I think she even thinks that at one point late on).
I think Elayne and Nynaeve might be more hesitant though...
11
Anubis: 2004-03-18
using angreal and ter angreal and sa angreal in the world of dreams is dangerous. you can not be certian how reliable they will be or even if they will work, or if they will do somthing completely random.
12
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-03-18
Egwene doesn't need to find the actual Oath Rod, she can imagine one into her hands. The fact that the a'dam, the Bowl of the winds, Forkroot all worked in T'A'R points to the Oath Rod working too. She could bring Romanda and Lelaine to T'A'R to witness, and it would be done. If Egwene hasn't thought of this yet(and it's brilliant, by the way) then she is still just a novice Dreamwalker. If she has thought of it, and there is no indication that she has, then she is deliberately not doing it because of the restriction sit binds her to. She likely figures that it would be ok to wait until after the Last Battle to swear her Oaths, no matter what she's said about doing it immediately.
13
Grane: 2004-03-18
Someone said something about a'dam leash working on Moghedian in T'A'R and the bowl being channeled into. First of all I agree that they were just channeling at the bowl to make sure what it was and that it worked, not try to change the weather. Second, a damane leash did work perfectly well in T'A'R but when Moggy woke up she wasn't still leashed. What happens in T'A'R doesn't affect the living world. If they would have channeled into the bowl to change the weather, they would not have woken up in the real world to changed weather. Assuming the Oath Rod would work correctly in T'A'R and Egwene swore the oaths she would wake up with the oaths bound, but discover they only worked when she was in T'A'R. This makes sense if you think about what Moghedian said about turning someone into a donkey(or whatever) and having them always be a donkey thereafter in T'A'R.
It's like the saying of Las Vegas- What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. That saying was probably RJ's inspiration for T'A'R.
14
Davian93: 2004-03-18
****Nope, Egwene's keen to use the oath rod despite it's effects (I think she even thinks that at one point late on).
I think Elayne and Nynaeve might be more hesitant though... ****
I agree, Egwene is deadset on using the Oath Rod as soon as possible. She just hasnt thought of using it in TAR. Furthermore, since it is not a set object it would be difficult for her to use it in TAT as it isnt stable. Elayne and Nynaeve on the other hand are against using it because of its life shortening affects.
15
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-03-19
Hello...I'm new to this site (although I've read it on and off over the last few years)
In relation to Egwene purposely avoiding the oath rod - she may well be. When she went through the ter'angreal during her testing in the white tower, she had a keeper named Beldeine, and she said to Beldeine something like "It's little known that I've never actually taken the three oaths'...going from memory of quite a few years back, but I'm sure it's accurate
16
HawkeWolfe: 2004-03-19
Grane
Actually what happens in TAR does happen in the real world as far as the "mind" is concerned. If you die in TAR you die in real life. Moggy was given forkroot in TAR and it affected her in real life. If my memory serves me, Perrin was injured in TAR while looking for Faile and his injuries stayed with him when he woke up. Yes, since the three oaths have to do with the process of the mind and it's thoughts, I believe that using the oath rod in TAR would still work in the real world. Of course if you want to go even further, Egwene could have went to TAR in the flesh and used the Oath rod.
17
Grane: 2004-03-21
You are right Hawkewolfe, I forgot to make the distinction between what happens to a person and what happens to T'A'R. A person can suffer wounds and still have them waking. What I meant was that what happens to the world of T'A'R doesn't happen to the waking world, so channeling into the bowl to change weather wouldn't affect waking world. Or using balefire to destroy something in TAR, that object wouldn't be gone in the real world.
I still believe though that if Egwene swore the oaths in TAR they would only work there. Now if she went into TAR in the flesh it might be a different story- it might work but we cannot be sure.
18
Arbryan: 2004-03-22
First of all, it's good to see that I'm not totally alone on this one (thanks for the support GlotD).
I really believe that she doesn't want to be bound with the LB pending. Her knowledge of the Black Ajah and the Seanchan (and everything else out to get her) makes her want to avoid the restrictions. I'm do believe that she will eventually take them, but it is much easier after the LB than just before. IF she is given the luxury of time and not forced to.
If she were put into a position of taking the Oaths, I have no doubt that she would (I just don't think she'll end up in this type of predicament any time soon).
A couple other points.
As GlotD mentioned, it might not require finding the actual Oath Rod. The a'dam that Nynaeve used on Moggy was thought into existence yet it worked the same as a real one. The same could be done for an Oath Rod. Egwene (or anyone with some control in TAR) could just think THE Oath Rod (with the number 3 and all) into existence and it would be the same.
-The reason they couldn't do that for the Bowl of the Winds is that they used NEED to find something to fix the weather and didn't know what they were looking for. The a'dam on the other hand was exactly like a waking world a'dam in appearance and functionality.
We also know that Egwene doesn't mind taking chances. She entered TAR in the flesh with a gateway-like weave that she just figured out – and had never tried before. She did this despite the disapproval of the Wise Ones and the warnings of how dangerous it was. She is definitely a risk taker when the possible result is something she wants bad enough.
As to the ceremony of the event, it could be arranged in TAR.
The other part of the raising has never come up in her thoughts (that I can recall). I kept this strictly to the Oaths aspect, as that seems to be the focus (especially prior to New Spring).
Another thing I just thought of that might make the connection between TAR and the waking world (and I apologize I can't think of any specifics at this time). Is there any reference to an Oath Bound AS restricted by her Oaths in TAR? There are already direct correlations made between other things done in TAR that affect the waking world. With those plus a connection of the Oaths working the same in both places might lend some specific strength to the argument.
19
Stanzi: 2004-03-22
I think I agree more or less with this. It was foreshadowed during her Accepted test that she would be Amyrlin, but Oath free. Whether or not she's purposely avoiding this, she must have that memory in the back of her head. When it's revealed that she hasn't taken the Oaths during her test, it's a *good* thing, as it does free her up to take care of business. And to a certain extent, with all of her wheeling and dealing, I don't think she would want the Oaths now as it is. She says when she gets back into the Tower because she's assuming that most of HER problems will be over, and the need to lie will be gone.
Again, I really, really like this theory. Kudos!!!
20
Mirtam Caulthon: 2004-03-24
I think it would work if she was in T'A'R in the flesh.
21
charliec: 2004-03-24
It may well work if she was there in the flesh, and I agree that she is a risk-taker...
But: I still maintain that she's keen to take the oaths, and when I get home in a few weeks, I'll look for the quote...
I also think that while she isn't afraid of a risk, she isn't foolhardy, and will only take the risk if there is a reasonable gain at stake. I doubt that she would feel confident either of the Oath Rod, or of the other Aes Sedai's recognition of the Oaths in such circumstances, and to even suggest such a scheme would stir up suspicion against her.
I also doubt that either she or RJ himself had thought of this idea...
Great imagination Arbryan!
22
heronblade: 2004-03-24
If...
1. The Oath Rod exists in the TAR and,
2. Egwene went and found it and,
3. The oaths took,
How many people would belive her that she took them, presumably the ones she asked to watch and all of her followers.
Think of the future now; E, When she takes over, is'nt gona be particually popular with some groups (namely, the commen people who arn't going to particually trust her, the rebels, and the traditionalist who dont want change.); the easiest way to shut them all up is to take the oaths very publically where there is little or no chance for evasion or propoganda.
This both makes sence (kinda, it is 3am) and fits with the political line of the rest of rj's books.
23
Caracarn: 2004-03-25
One thing people seem to be forgetting is that while Callandor and the bowl of the winds were in one place for long periods of time, the oath rod has been in constant movement, and thus is not a permanent object in TAR. I'm not simply talking about it being moved as part of the ceremony when someone is raised to Aes Sedai, Elaida's BA hunters have taken the rod from its pedestal and have used it in their search so the Oath Rod is never in one place long enough to have any real presence in TAR.
24
Grane: 2004-03-25
Sorry Arbryan but by all evidence we have at this point, especially the a'dam, just thinking the oath rod into existance while in TAR and taking the oaths would only make it so the oaths were in place while in TAR. TAR and the waking world are two places with different rules, but going into TAR in the flesh MIGHT be a different story. Besides aren't all of you forgetting that Egwene is on Tar Valon now? She will probably have a perfectly good chance once all the havoc at the White Tower is worked out. Like all of you said she will take the oaths if it comes to that.
25
free will: 2004-03-26
We know that Egwene is a rather accomplished Dreamwalker and has seen a Ter'Angreal in T'A'R and has channeled in T'A'R (TDR Chapter 27). Both being requirements to use the Oath Rod.
Actual, one must be able to (1) touch the rod (2) be able to channel and (3) someone else weaves spirit into the rod.
I'm not sure it is wise the experiment with binders. They weren't designed to be used in T'A'R and they weren't designed to be oath rods. If you used it in T'A'R you might become stuck there for all anyone knows. Or maybe that's how Asmodean created Gholams, we really can't tell what would happen.
Obviously the AS are ritalistic, taking the same oaths as in the past, the same way. And it isn't because they are ninnies. Their culture was naturally selected and those who varied from what is nowadays a clear path were burned out. Haven't you noticed how freaked out the dream walkers are about T'A'R and how dangerous it is. It's not just protecting poor little Egwene, they restrict themselves.
The proof is that if they weren't so bound by tradition they would have added some oaths after or during the Trolloc Wars to the effect of (1) Swearing to not lying (2) swearing they are not a darkfriend (3) swearing they will never become a darkfriend (4) swearing they will never allow themselves to be turned (5) make no weapon (6) not as a weapon except ... They could also swear that they've never sworn on the rod before and/or that they never will again. It's called prevention: and the only reason not to prevent is a fear that changing could be worse than not changing.
26
Arbryan: 2004-03-31
Sorry, this is a long one...
“...the oath rod has been in constant movement, and thus is not a permanent object in TAR...”
As previously mentioned, one can simply ‘dream' the Oath Rod into existence. The rules of TAR allow it.
“..., just thinking the oath rod into existance while in TAR and taking the oaths would only make it so the oaths were in place while in TAR...”
Not true. I've been studying the rules of TAR lately (working on a new theory). The major difference between the a'dam and the Oath Rod are how the affects are received. The a'dam is an external control that requires physical contact, whereas the Oath Rod inserts an internal control that once applied no longer requires any external influence.
The reference to the a'dam is strictly for proving that you can ‘dream' a correctly functioning ter'angreal into existence while in TAR.
The forkroot reference shows that internal affects are able to leave TAR with the person.
The correlation between forkroot and binder is not exact, but I believe it to be similar enough to comply with the rules of TAR.
“...Besides aren't all of you forgetting that Egwene is on Tar Valon now?...”
Again, no. This theory is attempting to show that it is possible for her to have taken them and that Egwene has been avoiding the Oaths on purpose.
“...Actual, one must be able to (1) touch the rod (2) be able to channel and (3) someone else weaves spirit into the rod...”
I had not meant to imply the exact process of taking the Oaths, just the necessities: Ter'angreal and channeling. Besides, doesn't one of the BA hunters channel into the Oath Rod herself?
“...Obviously the AS are ritalistic...”
This is where I have to disagree, somewhat. Yes they are ritualistic. At least they typically attempt to be ritualistic. However, Egwene (the person in question) is far from ritualistic. There are also numerous events that do NOT fit with the normal AS ritualistic behavior.
The tower is split.
There are two Amyrlins.
One Amyrlin was an Accepted that was raised.
Several Accepted are “raised” to full Aes Sedai.
They are in negotiations with male channelers.
Times are a-changing.
There is a lot of talk about the rules of TAR. The concept behind the rules being different doesn't mean that they wax and wan like the moon. They are just different rules. If something works one time it can be assumed to work again. As long as the conditions are the same and don't violate a specific rule.
So let's look for anything in this theory that would violate a rule of TAR.
*dreaming a ter'angreal into existence
-precedence set, no violation (a'dam)
*channeling
-precedence set, no violation
*using a ter'angreal (as it was intended)
-precedence set, no violation (a'dam)
*leaving with the effects of a ter'angreal still in tact (as they were intended)
-no precedence
This last one is the one that requires the most scrutiny. There are some instances where we see similar events take place. Here I'll try to show why some work and why others don't.
-a'dam: the ter'angreal created in TAR could not leave TAR (This would violate a rule of TAR, “Nothing created in TAR can leave TAR” so nothing physical such as the a'dam. This would also include the dream Bela that Egwene made for her journey through TAR to Salidar.). Once Moghedien left TAR she was no longer affected by the a'dam because it requires physical contact to work,. The affects worked correctly but could not transition between worlds because the a'dam was itself a creation of TAR.
-forkroot: Moghedian was still affected by the herb when she left TAR. I believe this to be due to the fact that the affects of the forkroot are internal to the person. The forkroot was also a creation of TAR but the affects were able to transition between worlds.
-TfoH Ch54-55 Rand uses the little fat man angreal when he battles Rahvin. He enters and leaves TAR without any mention of a change in the amount of power he is able to draw (and going against one of the Forsaken he would have noticed).
I'm making the assumption that there is enough similarity between the conditions of forkroot, angreal, and binding that binding would exit TAR with the person, in full and normal affect.
Similarities:
The affects are not external (burns, cuts, appearance)
The affects of forkroot and binding do not require further external physical contact (forkroot might need to be in the persons system in order to block channeling, but there is no external - to the body - contact required). The little fat man angreal is different because it was taken into TAR, not created there. Once in TAR Rand is subject to the rules there and those rules allow him to leave without a change in the amount of power he is drawing through the angreal. If that violated a rule it would dissolve the additional power that Rand was gaining from the angreal or some other effect to bring the situation into compliance with the rule. AS have also entered TAR and left without changes to their Oaths.
The affects become part of the person
And last, but certainly not least. The mere fact that AS are able to leave TAR without any modifications to their Oaths shows that those Oaths leaving TAR are not in violation of any rule.
The a'dam working correctly, the forkroot transitioning between TAR and the real world without change, and the Oaths themselves being allowed to leave TAR should be enough to show that no rules would be in violation.
Just to note: The Oaths are not a creation but a restriction placed upon someone that limits their free will. There is no violation of them leaving TAR because they would not be ‘created' there.
27
Arbryan: 2004-03-31
Post got too long and I forgot to mention another point.
At the Stone of Tear (I think it's TDR, but I can find the exact once I return home) Egwene is shielded in the real world. She goes to TAR and is not shielded there. While in TAR she finds and shields both Joiya and Amico. When she returns to the real world her shield is back but both of the BA AS are shielded.
Which means that the channeling affect placed on them in TAR directly affected them in the real world. This supports the Oaths being bound to the person in both TAR and the real world, without worry that things will only take place in one, or be different when they leave TAR.
28
jagaidan: 2004-04-08
i think that we should remember egwenes test for accepted in that she sees herself as amyrlin and she has to face the hall and prevent them from cuttin off rand from the source at that point she tells her keeper of the scrols (i forget her name coz i dont have the book rt now its from tdr) that she never swore on the oath rod so she probably wants to be ready for that situation in her life as whatever happens inside that ter angeral is a possile future
29
poofmagicsedai: 2004-04-28
Here's a quote from an interview with RJ found on wotmania.com that addresses this issue, although not all of it.
15. What happens to objects left in Tel'aran'rhiod? Could an AS free herself from the Three Oaths in Tel'aran'rhiod by creating an Oath Rod?
The only way for an object to enter Tel'aran'rhiod would be for it to be carried there by someone who entered physically rather than through a dream state. If left there, it would remain until it was retrieved by someone else who entered physically. And, yes, an Aes Sedai could free herself of the Three Oaths with an Oath Rod created in Tel'aran'rhiod, but remember that relatively few sisters actually have access to the World of Dreams, and for those who do want to remove the Three Oaths – sisters joining the Black Ajah – there is the Oath Rod in the White Tower to serve that purpose.
30
Finwitch: 2007-02-09
Well --
1. There ARE several A'dams, and they're *not* individually marked. In addition, Nynaeve, when creating this Ter-angreal, knew *EXACTLY* what it did.
2. I don't think Egwene *could* create the oathrod in T - UNTIL after she had held it in reality (in which case she'd be taking the oaths in person). Just because she has never even SEEN it before. You do need some familiarity with the object if you wish to make one in the dream world, I suppose.
3. Egwene MIGHT unbind herself in the dreamworld though. (My guess is this is the way the Black Ajah did it, though apparently some CAN go and get the rod without suspicion..)
