have caught an Aes Sedei lying!!!
by Him-who-may: 2004-08-17 | Not yet rated
I am pretty sure I have found a highranking Aes Sedei in Egwene's camp who without realising tells a lie.
The question is can an Aes Sedei tell a lie through sarcasm?
The situation is Tiana Noselle, Mistress of Novices in the camp and member of the Grey Ajah is overseeing the Novices in the Cuendillar tent. Also here doingthe same job is Sharina Melloy, the old woman who has become the self-appointed head of the Novices aswel as general strong-personality woman that pisses everybody off.
Now in this situation pg. 431, chapter 17, Crossroads of Twilight Sharina saysshe needs to go prepear food with the cooks and Tiana says "Go on, then- "I would hate to hear you had been switched for being late".
Now this is obvious sarcasm. Tiana resents Sharina usurping her authority and her general strength of will and also tries to insinuate Sharina as a trouble maker later in the paragraph.
Its clear she has a grudge against her and, like any other person, is prone to pettiness and would no doubt be happy seeing Sharina taken down a peg or two.
Now is it possible that in her frustrated state Tiana let slip this sarcastic comment?
It would seem so to me, but that would mean she was lying as I'm sure an Aes Sedei cannot tell a lie, even if it is only sarcasm.
What do people think?
and what do we think the ramifications are of Black Ajah that high ranking? In her own way a Mistress of Novices is even more powerful than a sitter.
PS. My apologies. This theory has not been worded in the best possible way as I am infact very jetlagged but I hope you can get my main point from all this.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-11-10
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
This is interesting. The Oath is to speak no word that is not true. Sarcasm is a spoken word, so it's subject to this oath. The direct wording of Tiana's comment precludes careful speaking that characterizes other Aes Sedai sidestepping this oath.
We've seen with Siuan in New Spring: the Novel that exaggeration isn't allowed with the Oath, so sarcasm is probably also subject to it.
This leaves us with two options. Either Tiana actually would be sorry to hear that Sharina had been switched for being late. Or Tiana isn't subject to this Oath. (a third option is that she'd be sorry to hear about it because she'd much rather do the switching on her own, but that's a very fine line to walk.)
2
Dorindha: 2004-11-10
I do think that fine line would be thick enough for an AS!
I'm sure we've seen Siuan be a bit sarcastic (when under oath), but otherwise, Tiana might not like the woman, but she is a good person to have around, and maybe she would be sorry to hear of it - it would undermine the good she's doing.
As for whether Tiana is BA, it is a possibility, but I don't think we know any other facts which might indicate it, and I'm not convinced by this alone. If she was, it would have a good bit of impact, but not as much as it might due to the Halima/Delana presence.
3
Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-11-10
Really Frenzy? Check out some of Siuan's colorful euphemisms in Book 4 like "I'll gut her like a catfish" (not a direct quote) and I'm not sure that exagerration can't be done. I was sure there was at least one that was obvious exagerration and passed.
In any case, Mistress of novices is the classic BA position, in my opinion, with Merean and Sheriam both fitting the bill.
Or, maybe Tiana doesn't want to explain why she held up Sharina, so that's why she would hate to hear it.
4
Callandor: 2004-11-10
**The question is can an Aes Sedei tell a lie through sarcasm?**
Yes, they can.
From an RJ signing:
**The Aes Sedai who beat Rand in Lord of Chaos did not necessarily violate the Three Oaths. Jordan explained that the Three Oaths are bound by literal intent and perception. He said that the Aes Sedai could have considered the beatings a just punishment rather than the use of a weapon. He also suggested that not everything that harms you need be considered a weapon. I think he gave the example of a whip used lightly not considered a weapon, versus a whip used to flay skin being considered a weapon. ~On the subject of the first Oath ("to speak no word that is untrue"), Jordan said that Aes Sedai can say something they believe to be true or something they don't mean literally. As an example of the latter, an Aes Sedai can employ hyperbole and say something like, "I'm going to tie yours ears over your head," when she means to do no such thing.~**
5
ilgross: 2004-11-10
Interesting. But remember that the person's interpretation of the oaths is as everybit important as their wording.
If Tiana didn't she her sarcasm as lying or thought that it didn't count, I think she would get away with it.
6
WaterSeeker: 2004-11-11
In a way even if Tiana did dislike Sharina It could still be the truth that she was sorry to hear about it because she didn't get to see it happen, this would way an impossible lie would become truth. Incidents like this are what bring about all those sayings to do with Aes Sedei and the truth as most of the time its down to how what was said is interpreted.
7
snakes-n-foxes: 2004-11-11
There's a quote in the books somewhere that says that Aes Sedai can say what they like so long as they think it's the truth....so...they can 'accidentally lie'.
In other words, the oath binds an Aes Sedai to her perception of the truth, and not the reality of the truth.
If an Aes Sedai honestly doesn't perceive the use of sarcasm to be 'telling a lie, or telling an untruth'...then they can use sarcasm as they like...within the boundaries of her perception.
8
Chrono: 2004-11-12
I think it is Egwene
9
Jay al Ender: 2004-11-12
Sarcasm is a hard one to judge on this. Are you trying to say she'd be happy to hear she got beat?
I would say the oaths would have more of a restraint on a real intended lies. Not unknowing slips of the tongue.
10
Elder Haman: 2004-11-17
I think tone of voice is also important in communication and thus in determining the truth of a statement- In other words a sarcastic voice is the same as putting a "not" in front of the statement.
11
a dragonburned fool: 2004-11-30
When expressing their displeasure about somebody or something AS can say things that they apparently don't mean litterally. For example Siuan as Amyrlin is often saying that if e.g. Nynaeve doesn't behave as Siuan wants, she (Siuan) will make her a bait for fishers in Tear or something else like that. Siuan doesn't really intend to do exactly this, apparently she will express her displeasure in another, more adequate, manner, and she definitely doesn't believe she could sell a novice as a bait for fishers somewhere, but nevertheless Siuan said all that and the oath was no problem for that.
The oath has to work only about things the AS doesn't believe that her words really mean. If the AS bnelieves that any figurative expresssoin of hers can mean exactly that for her, she can say it. Siuan was hit by the oath in NS rather because she sudddenly remembered that what she is tending to say is not true, but if she hadn't remembered it in the moment, she would say it without a problem. We have examples of AS noticing that something that she said before is not true, and that causes no problem for the AS.
Particularily about Tiana's words, IMO we don't need even sarcasm and so on for to explain the situation. Tiana has reason really to hate hear Sharina had been switched for being late even if Tiana would like hearing Sharina is punished. Tiana is a Mistress of Novices after all, and as such it's her job to make so that all her novices behave exactly as they oath to behave, so every punishment of a novice is a reason for the MoN to be unhappy. Tiana most likely sincerely wants to be a perfect Mistress of Novices and she would try to think about everything like a perfect MoN must think about it. It is completely plausible for her to hate hearing any novice making anything against the rules - it is MoN's duty to feel so. Now, this wich is in contradiction to her antipathy to Sharina. Well, and what? Look, we are speaking about _wishes_ and people often maintain controversial wishes. Tiana's situation is not so much different of Elayne's when Elayne want to slap Rand and to kiss him and to slap him again and so on... Emotions, as every White sister would tell you, do not obey the rules of logics. Tiana is not an White Ajah, so she is not bound to avoid any logical mismatch. Tiana is Grey, and a tolerant against contradictions logic can be very useful in negotiations. :)
