1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-12
Well I guess it depends on what you mean by "his own." I agree, these aren't his soul's memories...although, I wonder if they have now become a part of his soul...weird thought. But, could they be memories of his blood line? I would say yes. Is it possible that the finns gave him memories that are "genetically" compatible? I am not explaining myself, but obviously I mean could they be memories of his thousands of ancestors.
2
Callandor: 2003-02-12
The Finn gave Mat memories from the numerous men that came to Finnland. RJ has said that they are not from Mats previous rebirths, but as for bloodline... it would be interesting but I still think that it was just people that went to the doorway.
3
Graendalboytoy: 2003-02-13
If you follow the bloodline idea here,it would be possible for more than one of Mat's long lost relatives played important roles during that eighty year period. The Finn may have just enhanced the memories that Mat had from odd bits of the Old Tongue. The memories of the soldiers he has don't necessarily have to come from different generations each time.
4
Captain Cauthon: 2003-02-15
I always liked the idea that Mat's memories were from his ancestors. There's precedence for this in that the Rhuidean visions are all seen through the eyes of ones ancestors. There's no way though that Mat's memories could be from people going through the doorway since that doorway has been in Rhuidean for the last 2000-3000 years. Even the one in Tear seems unlikely given that it's been in a secured area for a very long time.
5
WinespringBrother: 2003-02-15
The doorway in Tear was locked away for the last 300 years. It could have been available during Hawkwing's time (when Mat's memories went up to).
The doorway in Rhuidean wasn't always there - who can say where it was for sure, over 1000 years ago.
And perhaps there is a third doorway, somewhere...
6
Callandor: 2003-02-22
OK! This settles it! Mats memories are NOT, repeat NOT!!!, his own or that of his ancestors. RJ said so.
Look at the Dromen & Demonen Chat with RJ at the interview section. This is the question and responce:
[RV_NL> What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??
[@R-JORDAN> mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.
Mats memories = not from ancestors.
7
linchan: 2003-03-20
Don't forget that Mat is Ta'veren - it's entirely possible that the Pattern chose to give him the memories that he would find most useful - the memories of good soldiers.
8
juitzhead: 2003-06-19
here's a summary that i have prepared. Feel free to correct anything.
1.Mat has received memories from Maciene of Eharon some four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars to final battle of Hawkwings rise.
2. Memories are primarily those of battles (mainly as a leader/field officer) but also include diplomatic missions. (Dancing in courts and such). Also includes memories dealing with the Athaan'Miere.
3. It includes memories of people dying.
4. Some memories have surfaced before entering either ter'angreal doorway.
5. Mat's ability to understand the Old Tongue is inherent due to the fact that he could understand the language of the Finn's when he entered both the Tear and Rhuidean doorways.
6. The Finns must either share memories stolen or steal memories from dead people. The Eelfinn (Rhuidean) doorway was not used by wetlanders for approximately 3000 years yet it was the Eelfinn which filled the holes in Mat's memories. So either there are more ter'angreal doorways, or the Tower of Ghenjei has been used as the other entrance to the Finn realm.
7. Mat's memories were chosen to be ‘compatible' with what he would require. “Son of battles” and such. Manetheren because of the old blood. That is why he has received battle memories, because they are compatible with his Old Blood memories. There is a possibility that he might have rejected memories of diplomats or women because it wouldn't fit with his nature.
8. Tower of Ghenjei is an entrance to either/both realms of the Finns. A way was figured out how to enter and adventure's used it. (Geographically close to Manetheren??)
9. Most of the memories are from Manetheren or sorrounding area. They do include dealings with Athaan'Miere and of Sea battles.
9
Callandor: 2003-06-21
Finn just seem to read the entire thread of someones life to me. Get the most memories out of it, even if their 20 and live to be 80 the more possibilties the more memories the Finn can get from a single person.
10
A Random Finn: 2004-03-08
The Finn do not have to read all the possible decisions to be able to read a thread in the future. They are outside of time so they are able to see exactly how that person will be woven into the pattern. We know this because they can give true answers of the future.
11
checkout operator: 2005-11-18
Yes they are!!!!! did mat not start talking in the old tounge before he meet the finns. did mat not also have indepeth memories of battels( the dragon reborn) before he met the finns? ill think u will find he did, so therfore the memories r his own! also if there r no overlaping memories its even more likley that there his as everybody gets reborn...
12
Bayle: 2005-11-18
Theron hits it right on, yes everyone gets reborn, but its one soul per body, and Mat has memories from people alive at the same time, sometimes from two sides of the same battle. Also like Theron says, remembers meeting hawkwing as different people. This would infer that the memories WERE added in and are not, in fact, tied to his soul specifically.
13
JakOShadows: 2005-11-18
Actually, he does have some overlapping memories, he says he remembers time he has been on both sides of a battle. And if you had read the whole thread, Callandor quoted an RJ Q&A, so that it is really hard to compete with. As for his memories of Manetheran, that's the old blood and the fact he was going to be a great general reborn. We haven't gone much into that since it seems intuitively obvious now, but before the tSR, they use to hint at the fact that he will be a great general in this age. As to why he remembers that specific battle, it could be that he is King Aemon reborn, which would be a cool idea, or that he was destined to be a general and that that was one of the most defining moments of Manetharen of which his old blood runs. But all those other memories are definitely not his own, they have a ton of quotes on it in tSR and tFoH. Mostly when he's thinking about battles or fights. Those shouldn't be too hard find hopefully.
14
Callandor: 2005-11-19
**Yes they are!!!!! did mat not start talking in the old tounge before he meet the finns. did mat not also have indepeth memories of battels( the dragon reborn) before he met the finns? ill think u will find he did, so therfore the memories r his own! also if there r no overlaping memories its even more likley that there his as everybody gets reborn...**
There is no doubt Mat has the Old Blood (the source of his Old Tongue speaking before learning of it from his memmories given), and that he had memories of a previous life.
However, he clearly was given memories of many, many, other lives from the Eelfinn. Of that, again, there is no doubt.
15
Callandor: 2005-11-20
**Actually, he does have some overlapping memories, he says he remembers time he has been on both sides of a battle.**
It's not. It's actually one of the men from Mat's memories being killed by another man, and then a second person from Mat's memories seeing the death of the killer of the first man, years older, by a boy.
**TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 37 - Imre Stand
It had not been that way, of course. Mat could remember- Light, I don't want to! But it came anyway-he remembered counseling Buiryn not to accept the offer, being told in return that the smallest chance was better than none. Aedomon, glossy black beard hanging below the steel mesh that veiled his face, drew his spearmen back, waited until they were strung out and nearly to the ford before the hidden archers rose and the cavalry charged in. As for turning back to Safer. ... Mat did not think so. His last memory at the ford was trying to keep his feet, waist-deep in the river with three arrows in him, but there was something later, a fragment. Seeing Aedomon, gray-bearded now, go down in a sharp fight in a forest, toppling from his rearing horse, the spear in his back put there by an unarmored, beardless boy. This was worse than the holes had been.**
So, they don't conflict, however they are far too close together for it to have been Mat reborn twice in that time.
16
checkout operator: 2005-11-29
well damn, think i should pay more attention. i suppose i just liked the idea of them been his!! is it not possible that a whole bunch of them r his? or is that needlessly complicated?
17
Callandor: 2005-12-01
**well damn, think i should pay more attention. i suppose i just liked the idea of them been his!! is it not possible that a whole bunch of them r his? or is that needlessly complicated?**
Almost all of Mat's memories are his own. But the memories that he uses for battles? No, not one of those are his, or from lives he has lived. They're all from other men.
18
checkout operator: 2006-01-24
right here i go agian, the bit that gets me is well before mat even knows of the doorway he has an indepth memory of a battel!! he even says he is from manatheren when asked. all in dragon reborn when he is just healed.
so what does that mean? old blood? but waht is old blood? another point does mat ever die in his memories? i remember him been full of arows at one point but if there had been an aes sedai on hand... (thats by the by just for my own curiosity)
19
tworiverswoman: 2006-01-25
checkoutoperator -- have you read "Knife of Dreams" yet? Mat gets a little upset at one point in the book about how he "remembers dying."
This thread was concluded way back in 2003. Whoinhell re-opened it?
20
Callandor: 2006-01-25
**right here i go agian, the bit that gets me is well before mat even knows of the doorway he has an indepth memory of a battel!! he even says he is from manatheren when asked. all in dragon reborn when he is just healed.**
He has a memory as if he lived in a battle, yes.
**so what does that mean? old blood? but waht is old blood? another point does mat ever die in his memories? i remember him been full of arows at one point but if there had been an aes sedai on hand... (thats by the by just for my own curiosity)**
1. Yes, it seems overwhelmingly the Old Blood. All of Mat's previous old blood incidents relate to Manetheren (the end point for his old blood, and of the Two Rivers). The best we have right now, is that because of what the Healing/the Dagger did (whichever removed his memories), it brought up something of the old blood that was this memory. This memory seems to be a memory from one of Mat's previous lives (when his soul was reborn previously, in the time of Manetheren). Reason being the similarity (IE: destiny) between Mat being a general here, and Mat re-living as a general in the memory.
2. The old blood is similar (but not quite) to inherited memories. It's just previous traits of a region showing up again in later generations. In the Two Rivers, this used to be Manetheren, so they will have Manetheren traits. This is why Mat would have instances of speaking the Old Tongue, yelling out battle cries from Manetheren, and his memory. It's also how Egwene can "almost understand" what Mat is saying when he's speaking the Old Tongue (Egwene has some old blood, but not nearly as much, or "concentrated" to say, as Mat). Also, how villagers of Emond's Field when they get the defenses together remark how it feels "they've done this before...." being an allusion back to when Manetheren fell and all the people took place in the fighting.
3. Yes, Mat does remember dying. He states that he remembers it so often that he absolutely hates when he remembers dying. But it's only when they're the memories that have been given to him from the Eelfinn that he remembers dying (IE: remembers other men dying as if he were them). How this happens can be one of two ways: either the Eelfinn "watch" a person their entire life after they leave with their wishes, or the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn as an ability can read the entirety of a person's thread (answering how the Aelfinn can be so sure in their answers that related to the person asking). I myself favor the second option, but it is technically the underdog due to recent developments (but still viable).
21
checkout operator: 2006-01-27
cool cool guys thanks for clearing that up for me.
22
Canan Urgas: 2006-03-20
when mat was infected with the shadar logoth dagger's evil & he went ill, he lost parts of his memories. now, when he went through the red doorframe terangreal and asked the aelfinn/elfinn folk to fill the wholes in his memory BUT he didnt tell them what to fill them with. So they put in random memories they had aquired from other men. If mat had said to them give me MY memories back, hed be fine. All confirmed by RJ
23
jhvanriper: 2007-09-22
I believe that at least some of the memories, if not all are Mat's. Mat has always been one of the heros of the horn. Note Mat seems to be a prior reincanation of George Patton who also remembers his past lives and battles. Note that both are calvary officers leading armies noted for moving men farther, faster, and doing more damage with fewer losses than any other army. Unfortunatly George died as soon as his war was over, so we can't ask him. (for purposes of this discussion he was spun back into the Patten till he in needed at Armegeddon again) ;)
24
jhvanriper: 2007-09-22
Matt is a really old sole. He just has gone around the wheel several times. Rand and Perin also...
25
Sane: 2007-09-30
As to the origins of Mat's memories: It could be safe to say that the people who had access to the 'finns in the time since the AOL would have to be of high stature due to the very nature of the doorways and their importance to military commanders as a means of determining enemy strategies etc. Perhaps there are other doorways strewn across the world which could have given the 'finns the means with which to access the memories of intelligent strategically gifted military commanders and hence implant such memories in Mat's mind
26
Richard: 2007-10-04
been long gone from around here (Tam bring me back with the sad email a few weeks ago). And has been mostly reading to pick up some of the discussions.
I am guilty of once upon a time proposing that Mats memories where his own. I stick to the summary of why, I believe, they are not from random people visiting the tower (most likely explanation if not Mat's own)
First, it has already been said that the memories do not overlap, but are close. He remembers being killed by a man he recognise as an old man. The timeline is close but not too close for two different young officers. This is not a modern Army, officers do not begin as soldiers and they began young. So it is very possible for him to have died and born again in time for the second memory.
An Finally, you need a very well known and common access to the finns for all this people to have access it freely.
Second, he remebers diying. I know, callandor explained. But for me it is still far fetched that the finns can access memories that happened after you leave them. Surely that little fact would not have scaped notice until now.
Son of battles, the snakes do refer to him as the owner of those memories. Mat also has strong battle-like memories of his menatheren blood before the foxes. Almost everything he barks out, is battle related according to Moraine. Plus, he already understand and speaks the old tongue when meeting the snakes. Later we learn from Bergite that he speaks it with many accents. So he HAD those memories when visiting the snakes. they were just old-blood-singing at the time, before the foxes make them more available.
History was never my fort, but it is my understanding from the books that the tower was not widely know at the time of AH. Bergite mentions to perrin that it is extremelly old, and the game was created for man to remember how to beat them finns. And though the snake door might been available to AH side through the angreal the foxes where most definitely out of everyone reach at the time of Mats memories. Also, Mat remembers always fighting in the menatheren side and always against AH (expet one or two, but that was after AH consolidation, so it matter little, everyone was on his side at the time). So he have to admit that the finns where extremely selective in which memories to give. Why not have memories of both sides? for and agains menathere and for and against AH? That would make much mroe sense. Fianlly, Toun dismiss the existence of the finns, if they where common and easy knowledge at the time of AH (needed to get all those meories of so many people), the seanchan would remember them and dont dismiss them as fairy tales.
Finally and most importantly, in all those meories, there is not one about the snakes or foxes. Other than there is a game that cannot be win, without cheating.
