emon
by linchan: 2003-03-20 | Not yet rated
I'm inclined to think that Mat is a hero of the horn; but if he is, he's probably Lord Aemon, not Artur Hawkwing: Aemon, aside from being from Manetheren, is referred to in the book as being a great warrior and tactician, is also married to the Queen (I can't remember if he's the King, or just her general). What's more, the queen could channel; what with Tuon being heir to the Seanchan Empress and more than likely able to channel, I don't really consider this to be a coincidence. I not sure, but wasn't Aemon absent when the horn was sounded? If Mat and Aemon are one and the same, why would Aemon appear if he were already there? That, along with the fact that in CoT, Mat recalls Hawkwing as someone that he knew, and not someone that he was, makes me think that he couldn't be Hawkwing.
An aside, does anyone have any idea why Tuon would ask Mat if he had seen Hawkwing's face?
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-03-26
Is Aemon a Hero of the Horn? I just can't remember. This does bring up an interesting question. Can the Pattern influence by giving him/her special talents and abilities that weren't naturally a part of their soul that was awaiting rebirth? For example, we know that souls have gender, but do they gain new Talents that stick with them throughout their next lives, or do they come into the world with the Talents that will extend into other lives? In Mat's case he he has so many new memories from other lives. Did he also then gain new Talents, or are his memories just a source of information, and all of his natural Talents are from the soul who the Pattern sent? I have heard Aemon before, it makes for an interesting story.
2
solomonrex: 2003-03-26
Aemon was absent when the horn sounded, but we don't know if that indicates whether he is a true 'hero' or not. Aemon may not necessarily be reborn. Also, I get the sense that Mat and Perrin are 'new' creations- not heroes that have been reborn or associated with the Dragon normally. Hawkwing doesn't call him Aemon, after all, but calls Rand LTT I think even though Rand is Lews and is not a contemporary of Hawkwing.
I think Tuon asks that question because of either a 1. foretelling or 2. a trip to the Finns that revealed that her future husband will have seen Artur Hawkwing.
3
Dorindha: 2003-03-27
Firstly, just because Aemon wasn't mentioned, doesn't mean he wasn't there, although, as he is someone we know a bit about, Jordan would most likely have mentioned him if he was there. Having said that, I don't think he is a hero of the horn - he was just a good general.
Secondly, Mat is not a straightforward rebirth of a soul: he has fought with and against Artur Hawkwing many times (this also means he is not the rebirth of Hawkwing, although I think seeing them together at Falme stops that idea). Mat is more like a conglomeration of many different souls from in and around Manetheren - I think he puts date limits on it at one point but I can't be sure what they are or which book he does it in.
It's possible that Tuon is another conglomeration of souls, and that the damane fortelling said something about this, and that she would meet someone similar (a soulmate!), and Tuon had the damane punished because she didn't want people to know she had these different souls - the Seanchan seem very superstitious. Therefore, Tuon would also remember Hawkwing's face, and knows Mat's secret.
4
solomonrex: 2003-03-28
I hate to say this, but RJ indicated that all those memories are not from Mat's ancestors- they are from other visitors to the 'finn. Mat didn't say what he wanted those memories filled in with, so they just took whatever they had, I guess. I couldn't have been sure myself, but we know Mat has strong Manetheren blood- and some of those memories clearly didn't fit.
5
juitzhead: 2003-03-30
Maybe she asks if hes seen hawkwings face because she knows he's blown the horn of valere. Although I don't know if the seanchan would actually have any clue as to its existance.
6
Anubis: 2003-03-31
Somehow she knows or suspects... it wasnt the horn thing that cought mats attention too, but rahter the memories from the finns. does she have some sort of knowledge of his memories? she is obviously aware of what the future holds for her, but how much specific knowledge does she have?
7
Fade: 2003-04-16
Emonds field is named after the place where Aemon made his last stand for Manetherean. after that his wife, Eldrene, who was also the queen, scorched all of the shadowspawn that had invaded the Mountain Home, and unfortunitly died doing it. to me these seem like very heroic feats. is it not possible that by doing those things, the wheel added them to the list of heros? and as we have learned the wheel spins out the heros where they are needed.
now its time for some more conjecture. i believe that Mat is Aemon spun out to help Rand (LTT), and that Tuon is Eldrene spun out to help bring the Seanchan empire under Rands control.
this theory also explains why Aemon and Eldrene were not present at Falme, because they were already in the real world.
8
Caracarn: 2003-05-02
I think Tuon asked because the damane might have said something about her marrying someone who has seen Hawkwings face.
9
Wolfblade: 2003-05-03
According Ishy the shadow and and the creator always chose the reincarnation of their champions to fight for them at every last battle. Such as the forsaken. So it would be logical to assume the Matt is a reincarnation of one of the many champions agaist the shadaw, i.e. Aemon. The other memories given to him are just extra things, such as Rand's gift with the blade.
10
Elder Haman: 2003-05-05
What do we know about MAt's Memories:
1: They come from the 'finns! Not the pattern when he was spun out.
2: They are clustered around Manetheren and battles with Artur Hawkwing. Those during Hawkwing are centered in Aldeshar (sp?), which is based around Manetheren/Two Rivers.
3: They overlap, therfore they cannot be from Mat's previous lives.
4:Mat has "the old blood" of Manetheren
Conclusion: Mat's memories come from his ancestors.
Note: The is a comment in EotW about Mat being a king reborn... maybe Aemon would fit him.
11
Callandor: 2003-05-05
Ok, I submitted this in the Mats Memories are not his own theory:
**OK! This settles it! Mats memories are NOT, repeat NOT!!!, his own or that of his ancestors. RJ said so.
Look at the Dromen & Demonen Chat with RJ at the interview section. This is the question and responce:
[RV_NL> What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??
[@R-JORDAN> mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.
Mats memories = not from ancestors.**
There you have it.
12
brigitta: 2003-12-12
there is no such thing as a conglomeration of souls for Mat. a soul is what (presumably) is in Rand (or he might just be crazy). a soul and its memories are detached from one another, one does not affect the other. Mat has only the memories, not the souls and his judgement is his own. the memories give him the information and MAT's soul decides what to do with it.
13
rangkor: 2003-12-12
Ok so RJ said that all of Mat's memories are supplied by the Finns.
The finns seem to gather memories from contact with the people that aquired them. Mat though has memories of people dying. His memory of laughing in AH's face as he dies for instance.
How then did the finn's get that memory?
14
Callandor: 2003-12-13
**Mat though has memories of people dying. His memory of laughing in AH's face as he dies for instance.
How then did the finn's get that memory?**
I support the theory that the Finn, to get the most amount of memories out of one person entering Finnland, reads all the possible events that will or will not occur; they read all the Mirror World events that occur from that one person doing something different.
Hence, if the person is to die in battle, and somehow doesn't die in battle, the Finn would read both and take both memories.
15
Arien Sedai: 2003-12-13
Tuon asked Mat if he's seen Hawkwing's face because of the fact that Mat's ta'veren - she had absolutly no idea why she said it.
16
Callandor: 2003-12-13
**Tuon asked Mat if he's seen Hawkwing's face because of the fact that Mat's ta'veren - she had absolutly no idea why she said it.**
Then why Selucia's reaction toward Mat, if it was ta'veren effect and totally random?
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 3 - A Fan of Colors
Tuon let out a long breath that did not sound won over in the slightest. "Do you remember Hawkwing's face, Toy?" Mistress Anan blinked in surprise, and Selucia sat up on the bed frowning. At him. Why would she frown at him? Tuon just continued to look at him, hands folded in her lap, as cool and collected as a Wisdom at Sunday.**
17
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-15
Didn't it also mention at one point that Tuon had had a foretelling done for her, and had then become so enraged that she beat the Damane that did it, despite knowing it wasn't her fault? We are told this offhand, wiht almsot no explanation and no need. Thus, it msut be important later on. This could be why she asked that.
As for the Aemon theory, Hawkwing never actually spoke to Mat, unless I am mistaken. We only saw him address Rand. On top of that, there is no guarantee they'd even recognize him, as Brigette does not, though she rememebrs him as the hornblower, whihc may supercede his soul's status.
18
dragonsceptor: 2004-02-15
I think that Mat is a hero and he is someone from Manarthen reborn. The reason for this is twofold. Mat was yelling Menarthen battle cries in TEOTHW. Second, Mat whooped up on Gawyn and Galad with a staff when he was still weak from being healed in the WT. Gawyn and Galad were both excellent swordsman to rival the warder teachers. Taking birgitte as an example, it appears that she is reborn with her bow skills. It would then make sense that for Mat to have the skills with a staff he does, he must have been reborn with them.
19
Khaos: 2004-02-16
Mat is spoken to by the heroes at Falme and they refer to him as Hornsounder. Not Aemon so i don't think Mat is Aemon reborn.
Also the Seanchan most certainly do know about the horn of Valere. Fain gives it to High Lord Turak at Falme and he knows what it is and is determined to return it to Seandar so that the Empress may use it. (Something which shocks Fain)
The problem is that people seem to think that anytime anyone has ever done something heroic they immeadiately make the grade as a hero of the horn but it just isn't so. As we learn at Falme there are perhaps 100 of them. If anything becoming a hero of the horn is probably the work of many heroic lifetimes as opposed to just the one.
20
Cossack: 2004-02-17
I believe that Mat cant be Aemon because he has to many memories to be one man. As it has already been said, Mat is a "new creation" Also Mat remembers talking to Hawkwing after being defeated by him. Thats a bit a time clash because Aemon never met Hawkwing.
21
Illuminati: 2004-02-17
First, the horn was created at some time. My guess is that those heroes bound where the heros present during that time. If they are bound with the purpose of being heroes they will become heroes over the ages without actually having much of a hero status to begin with.
Second, as a proof of above, there are heroes not bound by the horn. Probably all those who left Two Rivers in TEOTW. Also, the DO would be short of anything to put up against the pattern if there were only heroes bound by the horn, because the forsaken are heroes of a kind to, although twisted.
Now, that aside, to Mat. I've always, from the first moment Aemon was mentioned seen Mat as Aemon reborn (his soul). The hint to him being a hero out of the Manetheren history is just massive (about as massive as Taimandred but we all know how that went). He has the Manetheren battlecry, he remembers the last fight of Aemon (and that was before he got the memories) and the best giveaway, he is the leader of the Band of the Red Hand. Who was the last leader of that band? He also continues the legacy of that band with never loosing a battle, being a thorn in the Dark Ones eye.
Now, even if Aemon would be a hero of the horn there is no reason why the other heroes would recognize him in Mat. Rand is a special case, Mat would just be a normal rebirth of the soul, such as happens all the time in Randland, and we do not know enought to know if the heroes "ethereal" form would recognize a hero stun out.
I do also like the Mat and Tuon compared to Aemon and his queen (name slips) ideas.
22
HawkeWolfe: 2004-02-17
I remember reading one of the Aes Sedai saying that The Horn was made before the Age of Legends. That even during that period it was almost a myth/legend even then. If that is the case then wouldn't there be heroes from ages even before the Age of Legends tied to the Horn??
I tried doing a search on this, but could not find it.
23
vodomar: 2004-02-18
I think you may have read it on the TOR site in question of the week:
-- The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. --
24
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-18
I'm thinking that heroes can be added to the horn over time, should they distinguish themselves. I can't put my finger on any quotes, but it is the overall impression of the Horn and its heroes that I have received.
Also, as for Rand being recognized as Lews Therin, keep in mind that lews Therin had already started to coem forward, and show himself by this point. So the soul was not latent, but active. As Mat has no voices in his head, Aemon's soul could just be latent within him, and the Heroes unable to recognize it. Also, wouldn't it be fitting for someone wiht the soul of a hero to be the Hornsounder?
25
brother of Battles: 2004-07-16
Heros can be added to the horn. Remember in tGH, Artur Hawkwing looked at the sniffer from shienar Hurin(?) and said something like "Heros can be added at any time" or something like that (sorry don't have the quote sittin in front of me).
But I totally like the idea of Mat being Aemon reborn, either bound to the wheel or not. But the only problem with that is Aemon was alive not too long ago to begin with. If it is him, then he didn't wait very long to be reborn.
I still like the idea of Mat being reborn as Aemon though. And that Tuon is his "soulmate" queen. I do think that the demane that gave Tuon her fortelling said something about either seeing the face of Hawkwing or said that the man she would marry would have possesion of countless memories not his own. I dont know, RAFO i guess.
26
Callandor: 2004-07-16
**But I totally like the idea of Mat being Aemon reborn, either bound to the wheel or not. But the only problem with that is Aemon was alive not too long ago to begin with. If it is him, then he didn't wait very long to be reborn.**
....
He died about 2000 years ago.
27
Aiel Finn: 2005-02-18
Mat's memories that he got from the 'finns are those the finn's collected. He also has some memories from his past lives which are shown when he makes a battle cry, when he beats up on the Royal boys, and most importantly when he is being healed of Shadar Mandarb. During that, he clearly remembers a memory from old Mantheren.
Tuon's fortune just before landing probably concerned Mat. She was probably told that he would know Hawking's face. Thus she asks him, and her so'jin would be suprised that she actually believed it.
28
Yaga Shura: 2005-02-19
Mat being Aemon reborn seems plausible, especially since, in TEotW, Min tells Rand that one of the auras she sees around Mat is a Red Eagle- as in the symbol of Manetheren.
I agree that Mat's ta'veren influence causes Tuon to ask if he has seen Hawkwing's face. Selucia gives him a funny look because its a crazy sounding question and she believes MAt is going to laugh at Tuon, which would be a bad idea.
