1
Tamyrlin: 2005-06-21
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
There has to be some sort of mechanism for the 'Finns to gain access to the ends of select people's lives. Especially those deaths that obviously don't occur while in 'Finnland. Tying a string sounds clumsy, but the concept is sound.
That would mean that the 'Finns now have a connection to both Rand and Mat's lives and memories. I wonder how active that connection is: do they just get the memories when the life ends, or are they watching along? And if they are watching, can they influence?
2
ShadowbaneX: 2005-06-21
Keep in mind that Mat did have some memorizes, specifically of Manetheran, before he met with the *'finns. It's possible that when they messed with his noggin' that they were able to access some of that knowledge and made it easier to remember.
3
free will: 2005-06-21
I assumed that the men actually asked to have their deaths remembered, so the Finns placed a thing inside their heads that brought the memories back to them, where the memories are safely kept. It's a literal grant on one wish that gives them the raw materials to grant more. Which is how I think the wish Finns work, the prices paid and wishes made by some travellers power the later gifts and wishes of those who come later.
4
Callandor: 2005-06-21
Personally, I think that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn are able to view the entire course of someone's thread, and all the possible futures that they can have (if you want to put it similar to seeing mirror worlds for just that person, I guess that would be close). This way, they maximize the memories and feelings they get to "feed" on, as well as possessing those memories of how people actually die. But really we just have to wait for what tidbits are coming in Knife of Dreams.
5
Garayur: 2005-06-21
the finns apparently have the ability to look into the future or at least possible futures,since they were able to predict events that were going to happen to mat. ex. die and live again, going to rhuiden. We also know or at least suspect that they can feed or at least look at peoples memories and experiances from what Moraine, rRnd and Mat have said. (sorry i don't have the exact quote) perhaps while they are rummaging around in the heads of the people they meet they not only see past experiances but those that may happen as well. so those memories of dying are not so much actual memories but possible memories from those that visited the finns and were given to mat.
6
Lemagrag: 2005-06-21
Unfortunately I don't own all of the books, and a cursory searched turned up nothing. That being said, I believe there is a quote regarding one of the deaths he remembers; if I'm not mistaken, it's on a battlefield. If anyone can find this quote, it would be integral to disproving my thought, which is this:
Jordan specifies in the interview quoted above that not all of the men entered through the ter'angreal; some entered through the tower itself. This, to me, implies that if they entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, they were not protected by the arrangement made for those who enter through the ter'angreal. Since we saw that the 'finns that Mat met wore human-like skin clothing and other adornments, perhaps the men who he remembers dying died within the tower. Obviously some people have, as the 'finns don't seem to be the type to travel outside.
As I said, I think there's a quote that disproves this, but I can't say for sure. If so, the "string theory" may be the most logical thing. The question then would be how? Since it seems the 'finns don't channel, what other methods could they use to attach themselves to one's memory?
Just some food for thought.
7
Narianna: 2005-06-22
the clearest "dying" memory of mat is that of the battle of aideshar in the CoT when tuon asks him whether he had seen hawkwing's face.
the other instances are in tSR when during asmo's ballad on some battle mat remembers that the story wass false and he had died by treachery.
That pretty much disproves that the memories are of finn's killing inside finland.
8
Merk: 2005-06-22
He specifically remembers dying on a battlefield in battle against Hawkwing in (I believe) CoT.
I'm with Callandor and Garayur. I think the Finns can rifle through memories forward and backward. Obviously because they can see the future somehow, their relation to time is a little funny.
I can see how RJ's answer seems to be implying that the ToG has some connection with why Matt remembers some people dying, but I think there is a full stop in there that maybe we're not getting; ie, he RAFO's the main question, then clarifies one point (that everyone entered through a doorway ter') without it having bearing on the main question.
9
mako0424: 2005-06-22
I kind of took this to mean that although the ter'angreal provide adequete means of getting to the Finn's worlds, so does the Tower of Ghenji, which is almost completely agreed upon as of now, but what does this specification have to do with Jordan's point about deaths and pre-finn and post-finn encounters. well, it would seem obvious
these characters and people who mat are remembering went to the worlds of the finn after they died, its quite accessible within tel'aran'rhiod as we know, and we know many important heroes, and characters reside in tel'aran'rhiod, ie Birgitte, and Gaidal Cain,
well they went to the Tower of Ghenji after they died while the memories are still present. does this mean all these characters are heroes of the horn prolbably not, but whose to say they couldnt have been in tel'aran'rhiod anyways with use of ter'angreal or something.
10
SDog: 2005-06-22
This is an interesting discussion. It does bring up one exciting point for me. Could it be that "regular" souls (non-Heroes) don't just go to TAR after death, but go to some aspect of Finnland?
This would explain (a) How the Finns got the memories of peope dying, and (b) Why we don't see dead non-Heroes running around TAR.
It's a little speculative (ha!), but interesting.
It doesn't explain why the Finns were so starved for experiences and memories, since you'd think they'd have an infinite supply of dead people to look through.
I do think the "past and future" events idea makes sense, too. We already know they can look into the future of a person's thread...
11
Kantuna: 2005-06-22
I think that I read a thread the other day which said about the same thing. It was along the lines of "when people die, they go through TAR and then into Finnland." It would make sense if the people died, and then went through the ToG in TAR.
Even though this would work, i'm still with Callandor and co. on thins one.
12
JakOShadows: 2005-06-22
This is a different idea I've heard. My take on this is that whenever someone dies they go through the Tower of Genji. And in doing so their memories are suppressed and in doing so the finns see them. They are now ready to be reborn. The only exceptions would be the heroes of the horn, who seem to return to TAR after they go through the tower and therefore remember their memories in TAR. Now I do admit this is supposition, so I will look for evidence for future replies.
13
Anubis: 2005-06-23
It could be like some sort of perverse warder bond, in which the only affect is a one way sharing of memories. But like Callandor said we have to wait for the next book for tidbits.
14
wolfbrother369: 2005-06-23
It is possible that when someone enters Finnland the Finns have access to all the momories of the enteries past lives and therefore thier past deaths but not necessarily the memory of that current lifes death.
15
red hand: 2005-06-23
the finn read your entire "thread" in the pattern. this is both past and future. they are outside of the pattern. this is why you can only go thru the one gateway (in the stone) once. they have no use for you after that because they have "fed" off of you. they get something from the experience.
they talked about how long it had been since they had visitors, so that kills the "dead people go to finnland" theory.
one group gives the bargain of feeding off of the threads of your life to answer 3 questions. the other group will bargain for 3 gifts against what you can give them. they said something to mat about this like "wise to want out of here but fool to name no price".
he actually got more than 3 questions answered from one group and 3 things from the other. i would love if someone could get the quotes for the questions and the gifts that he got.
as a side issue, that was by far the best book of the series.
16
WCDWarder: 2005-06-23
I agree with Jakoshadows completely. In fact, I submitted a theory a couple days ago that promotes Jak's thought that the normal dead go through the Tower of Ghenjei. Hopefully the theory will be posted soon, as it also addresses the issue of the ghosts sightings.
17
WCDWarder: 2005-06-24
Red Hand says:
"they talked about how long it had been since they had visitors, so that kills the 'dead people go to finnland' theory."
I have to disagree with that interpretation. Just because they had not had a visitor through the doorway, that does not mean others memories were not accessed through teh Tower of Ghenjei. We don't know what do they see as a visitor? Would a dead person's soul be considered a visitor, or only someone visting in the flesh? I suspect it is the latter.
Also, time passes differently in 'finnland, so using time as a reference is inherently difficult in conducting such an analysis.
18
Callandor: 2005-06-27
**they are outside of the pattern.**
No, they are not. They are a part of the Pattern -- they simply exist in another dimension.
**We don't know what do they see as a visitor? Would a dead person's soul be considered a visitor, or only someone visting in the flesh? I suspect it is the latter.**
I would say it doesn't matter. Dead people go to a normal afterlife -- Heroes of the Horn go to their section (or the general area) of Tel'aran'rhiod.
I'd say any "visitor" would be anyone simply coming into Finnland -- soul, shadowspawn, body, person, goldfish, etc.
19
red hand: 2005-06-27
the reason that i believe that the finn have had no visitors OR memories to go thru is the way they acted. they were like crackheads that hadn't had a hit in forever. the way that they "savored" the experiece spoke to me of them not having this is a long, long while. this doorway had been in tear for what, three hundred years?
20
Richard: 2005-06-28
I have recently posted (or try to) a theory were I assume that all Mat memories come from lives he lived, not from lives of others non-related persons. I mean, look at Birgitte, she could remember all her lives, but they are fading. And Mat could remember some on his own anyway, way before the Finns. So I'm thinking the Finns only made it easier for Mat to "remember" those lives they were "familiar" with, i.e. the people who has pass by the doors or enter the tower. The idea of "implanting" memories on Mats head with other random people has always seem a bit silly to me. After all Mat wish was for them to fill the wholes in his head, so the memories had to be there somewhere...
21
Callandor: 2005-06-29
** I have recently posted (or try to) a theory were I assume that all Mat memories come from lives he lived, not from lives of others non-related persons.**
You did so in vein -- RJ has confirmed that the memories that Mat has, are either those of his life, or those given to him by the Finn.
**Q: What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren??
A: mat' memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said I want to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.**
**And Mat could remember some on his own anyway, way before the Finns.**
Only one confirmed instance, the rest can be explained as the Old Blood.
**After all Mat wish was for them to fill the wholes in his head, so the memories had to be there somewhere...**
Nope. And how would they fill the holes in his memory, by not implanting them?
22
Tantor The Holy: 2006-10-12
I think the memories came both from past lives, sifted and installed by the Finn, and also from other memories traded to them by other people. after all couldn't Mat have gone through the tower in a earlyer life?
