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ho IS Mazrim Taim?
by melchizedek: 2003-04-25 | 1.67 out of 10 (6 votes)
Previous Categories: Demandred and His Proxies
I believe Mazrim Taim is Sammael. He faked his death, knowing that the best way to "stay around" was simply to not be around. But he wants to keep an eye on things... so he is Mazrim Taim.
Much of the circumstantial evidence for Taim being Demandred was 1) Comments that LTT makes about the Forsaken in his presence. 2) Reactions that Taim makes when Rand says Taim is his #2. I think it's clear to everyone that Taim IS a piece of #2, but it should also be remembered that, like Demandred, Sammael HATED being 2nd to LTT.
Also, Demandred CANNOT be Taim because, at the end in Winters Heart, he doesn't recognize the Ashaman guarding Rand at Shadar Logoth. Taim would, so they are NOT the same.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-30
Okay, well, if I am not mistaken RJ has said that Sammael is dead. And all of the reasons you are bringing up to support the idea that Taim is Sammael are all of the same reasons everyone believed that Taim was Demandred (which turned out to be wrong), which is why some of us have and still conclude that Taim is a dreadlord under the tutelage of the Forsaken. As another detrimental point to your theory, Lanfear explicitly states that she knows where Sammael, Graendal, and Rahvin are. She points out that they purposefully carved out territory for themselves while the others hadn't. So, your theory is hanging by very few threads at the moment in my book.
Mashiara: 2003-04-30
"Sammael is toast." -- Robert Jordan
What if instead of Forsaken from the AoL, Taim is a Forsaken from another Age? Like, the second generation of Forsaken.
We'll find out soon enough, I think, when he bursts in on a meeting of the Chosen.
Mairashda: 2003-04-30
what about Moridin? In CoS the person watching sammael and graendal dealing with the shaido refers to them as "so-called aiel"... some time later taim does refer thus to those following rand. thinking about the sa'a impairing the watchers vision it is quite probale that he and moridin are identical...
Highbreaker: 2003-04-30
The quote that Tamy spoke of is this...
Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?
Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!
... So, if you don't believe me, the link is http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html and you can also find it on the "interviews" section of the link bar... it is the second one from the top...
I hope that closes this discussion... so many people seem to think he is still alive...
Callandor: 2003-04-30
1. As Tam said RJ has said Sammael is Dead.
2. Sammael was in Illian while Taim was in Saldaea and coming down into Andor to the Black Tower.
3. After Sammael died, before he could be reincarnated (and I believe RJ said that wont be happening anyway), Taim was STILL around and talking to Rand and meeting him.
Sammael is dead. Taim is a dreadlord.
juitzhead: 2003-04-30
Correct me if im wrong, but didn't Sammael 'die' after Mazrim Taim showed up in Caemlyn. How can Taim be at the BT everyday and Illian at the same time preparing for an attack from Rand.
Anubis: 2003-05-01
taim is taim. a channeler who went to the dark side of the force for protection from the taint. he was used by the red (also maybe black) ajah, and rescued by the black after his capture, at which time he was freed. he was probably some random saldean darkfriend, or maybe came to the dark at a later date, who knows.
Shadowstalker: 2003-05-01
So many people think Mazrim Taim is something more than an ex-false Dragon and the M'hael. In a way, I agree, though only to a certain extent.
I have never _really_ thought he was one of the Forsaken. Sure, I have read others' arguments for and against his various possible alter-egos, finding it difficult to argue with some points, but I have never truly been convinced.
I think Taim may simply be a Darkfriend, if he is any more than what we already know for certain. It is true that he has been somewhat worthy of suspicion on occasion, but I think that he is just a reasonably high Darkfriend.
Mairashda: 2003-05-01
if "our" mazrim taim is the same as the false dragon mazrim taim and if that one is a darkfriend...why come up with an elaborate plan of how to chain/collar him in order to pass him off as al'thor?
solomonrex: 2003-05-01
The DF theory only goes so far because of Taim's comment referring to 'the so-called Aiel'. On the other hand, being Mazrim Taim and keeping your identity secret would seem to be a full-time job and we are running out of male Forsaken that could keep this going.
cow defender: 2003-05-01
i used to not believe the taim is a darkfriend theories, even when they had so much evidence piled up against me. Now, sadly, i admit that he is one. But of what color? Many people think that he was Demandred, or controlled by Demandred. Was Demandred free from his prison when Taim rose up and declared himself a false Dragon? If not who was? Ishmael for sure. He could have been Ishmael's lacky, now working for himself, unless Demandred was the one who ordered the Black Ajah to free him. That part about the Black Ajah dressing him up as Rand i do not believe. It could have been a lie, as you know the best lies are alwasy wrapped in truth. Or else their plans just changed.
Callandor: 2003-05-01
Theres more then just the so called Aiel. Rand shows him Traveling and Rand calls it a gateway and then a page later Taim says Rand can Travel but cant test for male channelers. Rand hadnt said Travelling to Taim yet.
The WOT FAQ goes through it in much greater detail so I wont really go any further. Since RJ has said that Taim isnt Demandred though, it basically solidifies Taim as a Dreadlord.
The Leveler: 2003-05-02
When Taim first shows up and is talking with Rand, he says that there was always the chance that he could be the Dragon. Then Rand says that he missed the first sign, being born on Dragonmount. Then Taim says that if he had taken Callandor the heavans would've opened up to proclaim his birth on Dragonmount. The point is, Taim knew he wasn't the DR, yet he still thought he could take Callandor. he appears tho belive that any man who can channel can be the DR. He has tried to kill Rand, beliving that with Rand gone he can take over the world, using the Black Tower. he obviously belives that anyone who can channel strongly can be the DR, and possibly doesn't even belive the DO exists. Pedron Niall didn't. He thinks that possibly anyone who can channel can beat the DO, but it's pretty clear what Taim's after.
Rand-althor: 2003-05-02
Here are the main possabilities for Taim.
1) He is a control freak, and hates Rand always showing up and taking control of any ashamen he wants to.
2) He can be a Drakfriend.
3) he is forsaken
It is nearly impossable for him to be a forsaken for various reasons. 1) he can cahnnel Saidin, so that eliminates all the females. Asmodean is dead and the DO has specifically stated he will not be reserected. Rahvin: he was killed by Balefire, and it cant have been a trick because the DO makes referance to his death, and comments that he can't step outside of time. Bel'al also died by balefire. Sammael is toast, in the words of RJ(as has been said before). Aran'gar is Halima, and seems that s/he wouldn't have time to spend any amount of time at the BT, plus Taim is always at the tower when Rand comes, which would mean s/he would have to have dropped anything she was doing, at all, no matter what, to be there, and she wouldn't know when he was going. Moridin dosen't need to pose as Taim, and it would just be a real bother to him making his plans, seeing as he has all the other forsaken on a leash pretty much, so he can get info from them. Osan'gar is posing as Dashiva so why would he also pretend to be Taim? Why not have just been Taim in the first place? Demandred has been disproven. I need not say more about him. and that takes care of all of them. No forsaken left, so he must be either a control freak or a darkfriend. If he was a control freak, then he would never have bowed to rand being over him in the first place(at beginning of book 3) so therefore he must be a darkfriend.
Dorindha: 2003-05-03
I think it is pretty obvious he's a DF, and for the various arguments above, is not a forsaken, but more likely some kind of dreadlord-type.
I just wanted to comment on the "so-called aiel" quote, which has been used as an argument he is an AoL-er: if he has been tutored by Ishy/Demandred/whoever, surely he could pick it up from them?
Elder Haman: 2003-05-05
I think that the Dragon always has some close advisor/general who turns on him- Lews Therin had Demandred and Sammuel, Rand has Taim. This just fits the pattern that is repeated every time the Dragon is born- thus explaining Lews Therin's rages.
Korell: 2003-05-05
Rand is LTT reborn...HOWEVER there is room for argument about the whole always has his advisor or genral turn on him and here is why...Rand is LTT's spirit reborn however they are in the same spinning so whatever happened to LTT does not mean it will happen to Rand because they are not a repeat of each other but a repeat of somone we have never had a name for Rand is just LTT reborn but he represents a diffrent time period because this is the 3rd age
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-05-06
It's still plausible that Mazrim is just like the Lords in Tear, or the High Seats in Cairhien, or....He might just want power. Two obvious ways for Mazrim to get power were;
1) Defeat and control Rand
2) Become his second, and bring him down from the "inside".
Well, Mazrim couldn't defeat Rand ((Rand was just a tad stronger)), so that leaves Mazrim being *smart*; Becoming Rand's second, getting the Black Tower up and running, and then creating his own faction of Asha'men. He doesn't have to be a Darkfriend to be a human, that is, greedy and having a lust for power. He just happens to be like all the Lords and Ladies and High Seats that want more power....
So I'll stick with Mazrim being a greedy nobody ;-)
Korell: 2003-05-06
Hydraan Sedai ....Good point i think he is just a power crazed lunatic although there is alot of explaining in that case of how he has lived so long with the taint but then again maybe for a while there he was hanging out in an abandon Steading there he would be able to survive for a longer period of time
mattmcl: 2003-05-23
I just wanted to add my thoughts on the subject on Mazrim Taim. Like most others here, I think Taim is a Darkfriend and not as many people suspect, Demandred.
I always found it odd that Taim would proclaim himself as the Dargon Reborn and be a Darkfriend... The whole idea of the Dragon Reborn is someone who will fight the Dark One in the Last Battle. Why would a darkfriend fight his master?
Of course, one could argue that Mazrim Taim was a false dragon. So he never really intended to fight the Dark One. In fact, some believe that False Dragons were used by the Red Ajah, to legitimize their purpose of stilling male channelers. The "black sisters" of the Red Ajah might also have used False Dragons to instill fear in the common people about Saidin and the eventual return of the real Dragon Reborn.
Somewhere in TSR, we learn that Taim has been captured by Aes Sedai that had bee hunting him. Someone speculates that now that Rand has been proclaimed as the true Dragon in the Stone of Tear, the Pattern had no need for false dragons. It was also in TDR or TSR, that we learn about the practice of 13 Myrddraal and 13 Black Ajah that can turn channelers to the Shadow against their will.
I've always liked the idea of Taim being captured by the Aes Sedai (mostly Black Ajah sisters), and turned to the Shadow against his will... I always thought it strange that Jordan would mention such a practice and then not use it in the books... With Taim now a darkfriend, the sisters, conveniently, lose track of Taim and allow him to proceed to Rand to gain his trust.
Wolfblade: 2003-05-23
I believe that Taim was not turned against his will but is willing goes to the shadow. I have heard this before and I fully supported it. Taim is a dreadlord and a new age forsaken. Though he has many similarties to Demandred he is not demandred just a mirror image of him if he was reborn.
Machera: 2003-08-03
Ok we all have asumed that taim is a DF but he might not be one (this prolly highly unlikely but this thought just came to me)
1)He is a total jerk
2)He is concited
3)He is a power freak
4)He likes egging people on insulting them
Maybe he remark about these so called Aiel was just a snide remark that Taim seemes to be so fond of. He said that because he's like concited so he thinks highly of himself and would be one of the people who go around saying savage Aiel. Taim might just end up being an innocent jerk who ends up helping Rand or sunthin. Taim couls just be Taim. An ex DR who's looking for glory. I;ve always though taim to be an Red Asha' man and reds r like that. Bcuz were all like looking at the right hand man. Maybe we're over looking sumthin or maybe Taim isn't a DF he's just a guy playing his cards. If he hadn't excepted Rands amystey then he'd b genteled and to him he wouldn't have glory or any thing.
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-04
Taim is a df.
But while reading this thread something occured to me. Rand has only killed MALE forsaken. All the female forsaken (with the exeption of Lanfear) are still kickin. Does anyone else see this to be a HUGE problem for Rand as he wont kill women? That leaves the Sniffers, who have never killed anyone. Randland is doomed.
Callandor: 2003-08-04
Taim is a Darkfriend. If he isn't then we will have to assume that maybe Moridin isn't Ishy reincarnated (and he is, its VERY obvious).
Taim is a Darkfriend.
juitzhead: 2003-08-04
Just because Rand hasnt killed any of the female forsaken doesnt mean that Rand is doomed. For one, only the male have made themselves known. The only female to have contact with Rand is Lanfear, and that was a freaky stalker thing.
I dont think the Sniffers or any other female channeler will have problems battling the Forsaken. We know Moiraine didnt, and neither did Nyn. We also have a few female channelers that could probably or will match the Forsaken - Alivia, Sharina and Taalan. I think that Randland will be ok.
As for Mazrim Taim, i do think that he is a DF and Forsaken trained. He knows way too much for just a simple ex-DR looking for glory. Also, if i do remember correctly, he was freed by the BA, which is controlled by Ishy. For what purpose, I dont know, perhaps to keep an eye on Rand but he most likely has had contact with the BA and a Forsaken.
mako0424: 2003-12-08
This is where i meant to post some of my previous theories and what not, but finally i can say, i am pretty positive that Taim has to be a dark friend, and a Forsaken at that.
We have a ton of evidence saying that Taim looks different from when he previously claimed to be the Dragon Reborn, Davram doesn't recognize him, and maybe Sammael was posing along as Taim while posing in Illian, would explain why he was always running around, and never showing up at Forsaken meetings when he was supposed to. and we know the Forsaken lie and trick each other, he posted himself highly in illian for other forsaken to think they knew where he was 24-7, but he, on his own personal agenda and motivation, freed real Taim from the sisters before he was stilled, and killed real Taim and posed as him. hence the reason LTT and rand always are suspicious of him, and think Forsaken when they see him. And where else should a forsaken plant themselves than right beside the Dragon, and in a position of Power. Osan'gar and Sammael even made a deal, and thats how Taim let Dashiva in, and also why Taim is training evil asha'man.
And further proof is Taim disappear alot randomly, and how he knew about Travelling and things before, and why he isn't mad from the taint yet.
Now the final, and best,. argument against him being Sammael is the quiote from RJ's interview saying "Sammael is toast".
Well my final argument, he is a celver author and good marketer. Maybe Sammael did die, but not by balefire, the DO put him into Taim's body or something maybe, just like Shadar Haran told Osan'gar and aran'gar that Balthamel and Aginor are dead, and these people live on. Maybe RJ was clever and said Sammael (as in that name of the Forsaken) is dead.
There is my thought out two cents, any rebuttals or evidence for or against.
O ya, a good refernce, pg 90 in LoC, lots of hints at Taim being Forsaken.
like Rand says "he can't afford not letting any male channelers in, except if they were Forsaken, unless he was forced" basically implying the irony it is a forsaken, but you will only find out when forced to kick him out. and right after this comment LTT goes off talking about Sammael and than Demandred.
There done!
mako0424: 2003-12-08
hey sorry, still re-reading LoC, found more things i had forgotten. Taim had a cuendillar disc, that is rare, even if he is a darkfriend or dreadlord. and when asked where he got it, Taim says "this is the only one i...i've heard all sorts of rumors..." and he goes on trying to confuse rand and cover his slip, either eay he almost said something along the lines of he was looking for them and this is the only one he had found, but why would taim have searched for these, maybe to gather them as a dragon reborn should, but than, ok, why would he give it to rand as a present. he still obviously think shimself Dragon, he had no reason to give this really, unless Sammael wanted Rand to have it for his own means.
just some more random thoughts
and again, when Rand decides he doesn't like Taim and he doesn't know why, but he will have to trust him anyways, he tells Taim he will take him to the farm where he can serve him and Taim's mouth twitched upward in a smile.
I also vaguely remember that Sammael smiles in a fashion very similar. The condescending and cocky twitch.
Aelfinn: 2003-12-08
I read somewhere that the choices about Taim is that he's Demmy, himself and a df, or just plain Taim. What if he isn't the False Dragon Taim, but isn't a df either? Who knows, maybe he's Mazrim's brother (which would still make him Taim). Mazrim was hangin' around some Forsaken, and OUR Taim, who also just happened to be a channeller, overheard enough stuff to learn how to channel. Finally Taim killed Mazrim (after he'd FDed himself) and went to RAnd.
I just don't like the idea of MT being a darkfriend, and for some reason don't think he's the FIRSt taim. Tear it apart.
phenila: 2004-02-07
Mazrim Taim is one of the new dreadlords. The reason he looks different is that he probably swore his oaths on the Oath Rod just like the Black Ajah does!
Lan: 2004-02-07
After looking at all the evidence, I believe we must not negate the possibility that MT is merely MT, and not a darkfriend, or a Chosen, or anything but just generally dislikeable. Remember, the simplest explanation may always be the correct one, even though you may overlook it.
IkilledAsmodean: 2004-02-08
Yes, but swaering the oath doesn't change your appearance immidiatley. And there is still the fact that Bashere didn't recognise him. His appearnace woudl have had to change very quickly for that to hapen, as Bashere had been actively hunting him, and heavily implied that he knew what Taim looked like.
Now, here's the part that I can't beleive I haven't seen mentioned yet. We don't neccesarily know that Taim is evil. We know one person was told by Taim to kill Rand. But, we also know that Else Grinwald told the girls some information form Suin once, except it turned out not to be Else. We have no indication from Taim's own ehad that he is evil. maybe not exactly a nice guy, but not evil. And it would be jsut like RJ to elad us so heavily down this path, wiht everyone so thoroughl;y convinced, and then turn it alla around on us.
Khaos: 2004-02-09
Hmmmm well just for the record despite the recent question on the TOR website I am still undecided about whether or not Taim is Demandred.
However while reading aCoS last night two other possibilities for Taim did occur to me. Specifically it was while reading chapter 25 Mindtrap.
The first possibility is that Mazrim Taim after being liberated by the Black Ajah (or possibly before) was taken to Shayol Ghul and fitted with his own cour'souvra. Moghedien mentions that with a mindtrap its possible for your mind to be disconnected from your body trapped inside while someone else pulls the strings. So its possible that Demandred is in control. The only thing not made clear is whether or not you be reconnected afterwards. If you could this would explain Taim's occasional verbal slips (its actually a forsaken most likely Demandred in control at that time) but for most of the time he leaves Taim who he coerces to do what he wants at the tower, would also exaplain Demandred not recognising Damer Flinn, as most of the time its Taim who was doing the training.
There is something else mentioned in this chapter which could explain Taim's behaviour although its stretching things a little. After Moghedien notices the saa in Moridin's eyes she realises that he has touched the true power just after she begins to tell him somewhat condescendingly that he has been given an honour that only 29 others have been given and then he cuts her off. It occurs to me that this may be the very definition of the Chosen, those who were granted the permission of the Dark One to touch the True Power. Only 13 survived the war of power to be trapped in the Bore with the Dark One. Meaning 16 were killed. Now we know that the Dark One can recycle souls and that there is a time limit when he can snatch a soul for recycling, but there is no mention that there is any time limit for when he can use it. The ignorance of the Forsaken about recycling would suggest that it didn't happen during the war of power.
So its possible then that Taim is a recycled Chosen who was long since thought dead and gone and would have been recycled without the knowledge of the others.
Murrin: 2004-02-09
I realised something about Taim yesterday. I was wondering why RJ would go to such big lengths to make Demandred and Taim similar... And then I realised. Add in the Lews Therin ramblings, and it works:
Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. But Mazrim Taim *is* Demandred, in a way. The hints and Demandred links are not to show him as being the *same person*, but the *same type of person*. Taim will be to Rand what Demandred was to Lews Therin.
Demandred was almost the same strength, almost as powerful, almost as famous, and considered himself more intelligent than Lews Therin. Lews Therin placed Demandred in charge of armies, under himself, but Lews Therin got all the credit.
Taim was (false) Dragon Reborn before Rand arrived, and he is almost the same strength, he believes himself more inteligent than Rand. Rand gives him positions of power, but Rand gets all the credit, despite the fact that Rand has almost no involvement with the Tower.
Demandred became envious of Lews Therin - he hated that Lews was always above him, always acted condescending to him without realising it (like giving him honours etc), when Demandred was so obviously the better of the two (in his PoV, anyway).
Taim hates that Rand is above him, and treats him condescending without realising it.
IMO, Lews Therin somehow recognised this quality in Taim the moment he saw him - he immediately knew that Taim would be another Demandred. Taim will grow so hateful and envious of Rand that he turns entirely against him, just as Demandred did (Taim has apparently already done this, but has yet to reveal himself for the traitor he is, just as Demandred did not fully reveal himself at first).
Davian93: 2004-02-09
****Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. But Mazrim Taim *is* Demandred, in a way. The hints and Demandred links are not to show him as being the *same person*, but the *same type of person*. Taim will be to Rand what Demandred was to Lews Therin.****
I have to say I agree completely with the above statement. That doesnt happen very often. Rand has done pretty much everything humanly possible to turn Taim into an enemy. I think it all started with their first meeting in Camelyn. When Rand slammed the new chain of command down Taim's throat, it all went downhill.
Then Taim spoke. "Submit? I had thought more of a compact between us." The other Saldaeans tensed; Bashere was still behind Rand, but Rand could feel him stiffening. The Maidens did not move a muscle, except that Jalani's hand twitched toward her veil. Taim tilted his head, unaware. "I would be the lesser partner, of course, yet I have had years more than you to study the Power. There is much I could teach you."
Rand's not exactly the easiest guy to get along with. That problem along with Taim's overwhelming love of power were probably more than enough to turn him over to the shadow.
Dreamwolf: 2004-10-12
Robert Jordan never said Taim wasn't Demandred. He said Demandred never posed as Taim, which is key. The word posed is very slippery. The question was poorly worded and it received a poor answer. If Demandred was Taim from the beginning then he wouldn't be posing; Demandred would be Taim in this instance. One problem I have with the Taim Demandred theory is. Why would Demandred give Rand a ceil? On the other hand, if Taim is just Taim then how would he know what the ceil is. I think the case for Taim being Demandred is still very strong. Robert Jordan did say he was laughing from the shadows.
Callandor: 2004-10-12
**Robert Jordan never said Taim wasn't Demandred. He said Demandred never posed as Taim, which is key.**
No, I won't even listen to what else you have to say, because you are already dead wrong.
From THREE different interviews with RJ:
1.
**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."
A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."**
[Matthew Julius, post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2003]
That's one flat out answer.
2.
**Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"
A: (Disgusted) "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."**
Two flat out answers.
3.
**Question:
At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?
Robert Jordan Answers:
Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.
Well then. Three seperate interviews, all saying one thing: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.
I really hope you are happy, and drop this line of thought.
Also:
**If Demandred was Taim from the beginning then he wouldn't be posing; Demandred would be Taim in this instance.**
That would require Demandred being Mazrim Taim, from birth. If there ever was a Mazrim Taim, and Demandred acted like him, even from the beginning, he is still posing as Taim. No way around it.
** think the case for Taim being Demandred is still very strong.**
It's not. It's as dead as Asmodean is (the debate over Asmodean, sadly continues). The answer is: Demandred is not Taim; Taim is not Demandred. Live with it.
SugarBullet: 2004-10-12
Dreamwolf:
I think there are some problems with Demandred being Taim from the outset. Just a couple of the top of my head:
a. the timing - taim's been around a while and demandred's been sealed up.
b. false dragon - would the pattern recognize demandred as a false dragon?
C. why would demandred, adter being free go around trying to lead armies instead of just manipulating others the way every other forsaken seems to do? How does this jive with demandred's love of using proxies?
Seems a little like grasping at straws.
Llewellyn Reborn: 2005-01-01
Has anyone ever thought that Maybe Taim is a Forsaken from the AoL that sealed himself in a Stasis Box that opened with a time lock or maybe was found and opened by some other person?????
Dragons Shadow: 2005-01-02
Mazrim Taim is simply a "replacement" for Demandred. The pattern demanded that Rand have Demandred as his "second", however Demandred was currently sealed in the Bore. So, the Wheel created a near identical person to replace him. He is NOT yet a darkfriend. He is, however, increasingly jealous of Rand and will betray him to the Shadow before the end, just as Demandred did.
TheJester: 2005-01-04
If the pattern has spun out Mazrim Taim as a replacement to Demandred then surely the age would not be the Third Age but the Age of Legends, each Age is different but if it follows that the Dragon has to follow the same pattern every time he is reborn then surely we would see far more similarities, like does that mean that Logain is Sammael? I don't beieve so, Logain is loyal, maybe not really to the Dragon Reborn but loyal to winning the Last Battle and that means following Rand.
Mazrim Taim is probably a powerful channeler with a lust for personal power and control, and as such is not happy having to be subordinate to Rand and as such has him spied upon. He probably wanted Rand dead because he had had enough of Rand's chafing control over Taim's desire to attck the Aes Sedai in Caemlyn, did his order not come after the failed attack on the Black Tower, seems like good enough reason I have to put up with all these Aes Sedai as he ordered me to do it and I can't kill them as most of the Dedicated are still loyal to him, but if I remove him then it is only me that they will have to follow.
: 2005-03-27
Mazrim Taim is a Darkfriend.
How do I know this? Taim is descibed as being "at least 15 years older than [Rand]; thirty-five, then, or a few years older at most" (LoC, p. 92). Assuming that Power-wielding men age as slowly as their female counterparts, Taim has to be considerably older than that. How much older is not clear, but in WH,we learn that Kinswoman-turned-novice Kirstian is over 300, though she only appears to be 30 or so (p. 216), and Reanne, who looks 50 or 60, is actually 412 (CoS, p. 643). Since Elayne has said that how much someone slows depends on how strong they are (CoS, p. 521), and Mazrim Taim is obviously much stronger than either Reanne or Kirstian, Taim is probably older than Kirstian at least, if not Reanne. That means he's at least 300-some years old, and there's no way he could have survived the taint that long without the Dark One's protection. Most men don't live for more than 10 years after they start channeling, so he must have gotten the Black Cords hundreds of years before Rand was even born. Unless Taim just happened to stumble upon Shayol Ghul, receive the Dark One's blessing, and then proceed to teach himself things no one had been able to do since the Age of Legends, it seems pretty likely that Ishamael found him, took him to SG, and taught him. That would explain Taim's knowledge of channeling, and maybe even his "so-called Aiel" comment.
I suppose it's possible that Taim is one of the original Forsaken--maybe the Lucky Thirteen weren't the only ones trapped--but I doubt it. He clearly isn't Demandred, either, so for the moment, I'm going to assume that he is simply a powerful Darkfriend born in the Third Age.
maharbry: 2005-03-28
i didnt have time to see if this has been mentioned yet, but there is an interview with RJ where he says Sammael is gone and not coming back.
Sampson: 2005-03-29
I have a couple of thoughts to add about Mazrim Taim.
First let's look at the environment he grew up in. Saldaea!
Saldaea is on the border of the blight. Which one would assume would have a martial type of culture. Most of the borderlands know their history, about battles in the past and how they were won or lost. The borderlands respect Aes Sedia and what they bring to the table.
We do not know how men in any of the borderlands are handled when they find out that they can channel. But we can assume that it isn't a pleasant fate that awaits them.
We do not know if Mazrim Taim was a merchant's son, a farmer's son or whatever. We do know that he doesn't think highly of swordsmanship or that skill, so most likely not a solder. We also know that he is not a stupid person; I think he is well educated; at least he comes across as educated to me.
So Mazrim is going about his daily routine in the borderlands and he starts feeling funny and strange things are happening to him. He comes to understand that he is one of the despised men who can channel. He doesn't want to dishonor is family or himself, but he doesn't want to be gentled and the fate that it causes.
So he has a couple of options. (1) Keep quite and learn as much as he can. I mean he has heard all the stories of how the greatest feats where accomplished by men and women channeling the power. Maybe he can learn how to use it and not go mad. Or option (2) dishonor his families name, be gentled and pray for a way that he can end his life. I myself would choose option 1.
So now Mazrim has to study and learn as much as he can, gain control of his ability to channel and keep it all secret.
We do not know enough of his past to speculate one way or another. But if we place ourselves in his shoes and think what we would do in his position. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that he did study and gain control of his ability. Through studying and experimentation he could have learned allot. One does have to have a strong will and mind to channel the male side of the source. It is also addicting, so he would understand that he would channel regardless of not wanting to. So instead of not channeling allot, he spent as much time as possible in the “oneness” and learned.
I say that he legitimately believed he was the Dragon reborn when he proclaimed himself. How was he supposed to know he wasn't?
He had followers, he was in command. He defeated a famous Saldaean general. He is riding high.
Then Rand confronted Ishmael at Flame. Mazrim gets knocked off his horse and gets captured. Now he faces what he has been avoiding since he knew he could channel.
He escapes his Aes Sedia handlers during an attempt by the BA to capture him for their use. He is being hunted by the White Tower, he is being hunted by the Saldaean army, and he is being hunted by the BA.
The proclamation has been announced that men who channel should come to Rand. Mazrim having an ego and wants to come out on top in every situation goes to Rand. We all remember the scene.
Mazrim believes he is still the man and that he can get power and glory while working for Rand. I still think at this point he is on the side of the light.
After being around Rand and seeing how much he doesn't know, he starts to wonder why Rand is the man and not him. He is doing all the work for the black tower; he is recruiting and training all the men. The men look up to him and follow him.
He saves Rand at Dumi Wells, and he feels he doesn't get the recognition that he deserves. He feels Rand doesn't take his advice and doesn't show a proper amount of respect for what he just accomplished.
I would tend to agree at this point. Rand could have handled the situation allot better. I mean he was just saved my Mazrim. He should have weighed his advice a little more and given him a little more than what he did. Maybe not giving the Aes Sedia to him, but he could have handled it a little better.
I think at this point, the powers of the Shadow started to put pressure and the recruiting spill to Taim. Why should Rand get all the glory? Didn't you just save him? Are you not as powerful as Rand? Was it not you who created the black tower and trained all the Ashaman? Why should you be #2 when you could be #1? Wouldn't you want to live for ever and rule over humanity?
So Mazrim gave himself over to the Shadow. Now he is a friend of the dark.
STC: 2006-08-16
Ok, I am going to stretch a lot. Bear with me and read through. One, the premise is that Taim is not in fact a dreadlord, or even a darkfriend, and he is certainly not any of the Forsaken. However, he is forsakened trained. Yes, wild. So what is going on? Simple. Taim, years ago (5-20), learns he can channel. This catches the attraction of either Ishy Or Demandred. Then Ish/Dem devise a plan. They find Taim, as a scared man, scared of his power, the Taint, and what may happen to him once he starts channeling. So they think of a plan which is meant for the long run. So, Ish/Dem proposes that they show Taim how to control his power. Well, the Taint is bad and all, but maybe not killing himself or others near him could help him live longer. So he agrees, not caring who or what his teacher was, just hopeful to save himself. However, Taim does not know his teachers are the Forsaken, believeing like everyone else that they are still sealed away. But power and self salvation blind him. Well he learns, and learns, and learns, picking up on his teachers sayings and mannerisms. Then after learning for so long, and being exposed to the Taint, Taim declares himself the Dragon Reborn, after some prodding from his teacher. This brought down some serious attention on Taim. Some time lapses, and Rand sees two false dragons. Logain and Taim. Then Rand thinks, what if I could get the false dragon who is not gentled, somehow uncaptured by Aes Sedai (possible teacher intervention), to help me turn other men who can channel in to weapons for the Last Battle. Well, Rand meets Taim and LTT goes off on death and killing Taim. This may be due to Taim's mannerisms picked up from his teacher, OR LTT knows Taim is insane. Taim is freaking loony. Loony and dangerous. You see, Taim is one of those sane looking nuts. His sudden bowing to Rand and then wanting him dead. Coloring himself like his teacher. The so-called Aiel, the almost smile frown twitch thing. WAIT! WAIT! What about the obvious split in the Black Tower between Taim and Logain Asha'man? Simply, Taim's Asha'man are dfs under commands from Ishy to do what Taim says. Be his lacky. Let Taim do what he wants. "Let The Lord Of Chaos Rule." The LoC not being the DO, but the insane and completely loops Taim, who left alone would create chaos with 200+ corrupted Asha'man under him. And Taim hears of this, but doesn't know what to make of it, but it sounds good, and he is insane. So whe the AS meet him, he says it, and the Asha'man, knowing the true meaning behind it laugh, not with Taim, but at him.
So that clears up some things, but what about the attempted attack on Rand in TPoD? Well, insane Taim orders two of his df lackeys to kill Rand. Dashiva sees Gedwyn and Rochaid and follows them to the Sun Palace via his own gateway. Then Flinn and Narishma see Dashiva or maybe the two and follow them there via another gateway. This is when Rand feels the saidin and is attacked. He immiediately follows the trail and finds Dashiva getting the truth out of Gedwyn and Rochaid. He was saying something like, "Did you kill him? I hope you did not, for we still need him. Here is neither the time or place." This goes on for a few minutes, and then believing he did, Gedwyn says "I am telling you, I felt nothing. He's dead." Then Rand pops up. Dashiva flings some fireballs, and manages to escape, for I am sure those three could have killed Rand if they needed to. But they don't and more Asha'man are sent to kill Rand. This is ordered by Taim, not knowing the Forsaken intervened.
But, the Forsaken do nothing, avoiding exposure. Well, that doesn't prove it all, but only simply because I do not feel like writing anymore. If you want to hear my view on anything else about Taim, I can elaborate. I have the whole theory in my head, I only just elaborated on the major points. One last thing, Perrin never met Taim, but I am willing to bet that if he did, he would have the same smell of Masema.
Callandor: 2006-08-18
**Taim, years ago (5-20), learns he can channel. This catches the attraction of either Ishy Or Demandred.**
Only Forsaken free in the world previous to The Eye of the World is Ishamael. Demandred and the rest were not freed until the end of The Eye of the World/between it and The Great Hunt. Aginor and Bathamel were freed first because they were closest trapped. Ishamael was out working far earlier because he wasn't completely trapped in the first place.
**However, Taim does not know his teachers are the Forsaken, believeing like everyone else that they are still sealed away.**
Which brings up the question of would Taim not grow suspicious of who his teacher was, since no others would be known? As Rand says, he needed Asmodean or a male Forsaken teacher, since there is no one else.
**Taim is freaking loony. Loony and dangerous. You see, Taim is one of those sane looking nuts. His sudden bowing to Rand and then wanting him dead.**
There's no such thing as a "sane looking nut." Anyone who is crazy has signs of it, and mad male channelers are anything but subtle. Rand is the closest to what you're looking for, and even his signs of madness are obvious to other people (Perrin, Egwene, Bashere, Taim, and even Lanfear and other Forsaken). Taim has no signs but being angry at Rand at some instances, which is hardly madness.
**Simply, Taim's Asha'man are dfs under commands from Ishy to do what Taim says. Be his lacky.**
Ah, so all of them just happen to be Darkfriends, but Taim, the lead teacher and one who works closest with them has absolutely no clue on this? Taim, who specifically uses four key lackies who are obviously Darkfriends, is just in the dark?
There's no possible way that Taim would not know they were all Darkfriends yet still recruit them to his cause. There's really no way Taim would recruit Darkfriends at all to his cause unless he himself was one. This isn't as if there's only a few in every part of society -- there is a concentrated amount of Darkfriends working specifically with Taim and close to him. They're obviously his pawns and he knows this; they're obviously Darkfriends, and so is Taim.
**The LoC not being the DO, but the insane and completely loops Taim, who left alone would create chaos with 200+ corrupted Asha'man under him.**
The Lord of Choas is simply a fancy way of saying "chaos." Hence why Demandred says it, hence why Semirhage says it, hence the Forsaken's actions since that order. Chaos. Just that.
**So whe the AS meet him, he says it, and the Asha'man, knowing the true meaning behind it laugh, not with Taim, but at him.**
Taim was using it in a clearly mocking tone -- Pevara herself recognizes this. You don't use anything in a mocking tone if you don't know the meaning of it.
And the only thing to come from Taim's actions in that section is chaos. This is all that Taim has been after -- in fact all he's specifically been after: antagonism between Rand and Aes Sedai (chaos between them).
**One last thing, Perrin never met Taim, but I am willing to bet that if he did, he would have the same smell of Masema.**
Well, he wasn't specifically introduced to him in the chapter that we saw, but Perrin has smelled Taim before:
**TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 2 - The Butcher's Yard
"Enough!" Rand shouted. They fell silent as one, but their reactions were very different. Taim's features went blank, though he smelled of fury. Amys and Sorilea exchanged glances and adjusted their shawls in near unison; their scents were identical, too, and matched their faces in pure determination. They wanted what they wanted and intended to have it, Car'a'carn or no. Looks passed between Kiruna and Bera, as well, speaking such volumes that Perrin wished he could read them the way his nose read scent. His eyes saw two serene Aes Sedai, in command of themselves and anything else they wished to be in command of; his nose smelled two women who were anxious, and more than a little afraid. Of Taim, he was sure. They still seemed to think they could deal with Rand, one way or another, and with the Wise Ones, but Taim and the Asha'man put the fear of the Light into them.
...
Rhuarc stood there idly examining the point of one of his short spears. This was Wise Ones' business, and he always said he did not care what the Wise Ones did so long as they kept their fingers out of clan chiefs' business. But Taim.... He made a show of not caring, folding his arms and looking around the camp with a bored expression, yet his scent was strange, complex. Perrin would have said the man was amused, definitely in a better humor than before.
...
"Dashiva," Taim said slowly, studying Rand. He smelled even more surprised than Rand did, and irritated, too. "Corlan Dashiva. From a farm in the Black Hills."**