emandred within the WC's
by juitzhead: 2003-07-30 | 5.33 out of 10 (3 votes)
This a theory which I posted on the message boards with some agreement. I'd just like to expand on it a bit and it will cover and link few ideas.
"Abruptly he stopped in his tracks, wrinkling his nose at a sudden stench, a gagging foulness like twenty midden heaps crawling with maggots.”
“He was scanning the camp for the source of the smell, when suddenly there was no smell. The wind did not change; the stink just vanished." Eamon Valda, CoT Prologue
I think what happended here is that someone opened a gateway nearby. Since the smell suddenly stopped and there wasn't a wind change, it would confirm it for me.
“A gagging stench swept out of the town, the stink Perrin had been smelling, only stronger. Old dirt and old sweat, decaying middens and chamber pots too long unemptied” – CoT, Ch27, So Habor
“At last, the gates squealed open on massive rusty hinges. A gagging stench swept out of the town, the stink Perrin had been smelling, only stronger. Old dirt and old sweat, decaying middens and chamber pots too long unemptied” – CoT, Ch27, So Habor
"When he breathed through his nose, the sweet stench of decay, heavy and thick, sickened him; when he tried breathing through his mouth he almost gagged. The air tasted like a mouthful of spoiled meat." - TEotW, Ch 48, The Blight
“Demandred stepped out onto the black slopes of Shayol Ghul, and the gateway, a hole in reality's fabric, winked out of existence.......
He released the One Power immediately, and with the vanished sweetness went the heightened senses that made everything sharper, clearer. The absence of saidin left him hollow, yet here only a fool would even appear ready to channel. Besides, here only a fool would want to see or SMELL or feel too clearly” – LOC, Prologue
These quotes outline the smells which very much match those of the quote placed in CoT. So I would assume that someone has either travelled to the WC camp from either SL or So Habor.
My personal opinion is that It was indeed Demandred from SL, who is either within the WC's or is compelling someone within their ranks. As we all know, Dem likes to use proxies so I think that the person he is using is Rhadam Asunawa – The High Inquisitor.
“I have reports of an Andoran army in Murandy, my son,” Asunawa said. “Deep in Murandy, perhaps.”
“Murandy is a long way from here,” Valda said as though he did not recognize an old argument starting anew. An argument that Asunawa often seemed to forget he had already lost.
Quote speaks for itself. Asunawa is not just being stubborn, but seems very forgetfull.
“There was no sunflare on that, just the scarlet crook. Instead, he folded his hands over the book, hiding the pages. Valda thought it was Mantelar's The Way of the Light. Odd reading for the High Inquisitor. More suited to new recruits; those who could not read when they swore were taught so they could study Mantelar's words.” – CoT, Prologue
“To become the first king that Andor had ever had. And she still felt the desire to return to her book and wait for him. She still ached for his touch.
It was not until she saw the aged faces in the hallway around her, the creased cheeks and often bent backs, that she became aware of where she was. The Pensioners' Quarters.” – tFoH, Memories
There are similarities in the way Asunawa has been acting and Morgase. Both feel a need to be with a past part of their lives that they hold dearly. We know this is the way Morgase broke out of her compulsion, perhaps Asunawa is trying to do the same.
So, Asunawa is being compelled by the Forsaken Demandred for the purpose of.....i don't know? Perhaps to cause a war in Murandy or to attack the SAS. Take a guess but I think that Dem has definitely been dealing with the WC's, perhaps orchestrated Niall's death.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-08-01
Asunawa is an interesting proxy, you ought to delve deeper into the possible reasons Demandred might dip his hand into that region. The Prophet, who I believe is a proxy of Demandred, has encountered the White Cloaks, did Demandred orchestrate that entire mess to bring the White Cloaks out of Amador, allowing the Seanchan to come in quickly and take over? You brought up some good quotes, the forgetfullness would be indicative of someone who has been compelled by the One Power, and it happens right after the smell, which you equate with a gateway from Shayol Ghul opening? Is it possible that Asunawa is a pawn of Moridin or Shaidar Haran instead?
2
Vaughn882: 2003-08-01
Also, to help your theory, one of the forsaken (i think graendal) said:
"Events to the south have Demandred's name on them" (or something like that). Perhaps Demandred did orchestrate the Seanchan's attack on amador. And maybe, since Masema may be his proxy (or someone else's) he is orchestrating the whole mess Perrin is in too. Is he trying to kill Perrin? Maybe he is trying to play the WCs, Prophet men, and Seanchan against Perrin, trying to take out one of the legs of the tripod.
3
Callandor: 2003-08-01
It could be that Dem was going to SG to ask if it was time to kill that fool al'Thor :).
If Dem is controlling both the WC and the Dragonsworn by Asunawa and Masema, that is a pretty big force (even if it's two sperate forces) that can be controlled to ensure that it will be very difficult for Rand to control those areas.
Nice catch :).
4
Shadow Bane: 2003-08-01
very nice, i cant beleive how ignorant i am, i didn't even THINK the wcs had anything to do with the forsaken. We haven't had to many wc veiws and we haven't seen demandred at work so yes this has alot of potential. What does Dem plan on doing with his proxies though.
5
Rand-althor: 2003-08-01
I agree with the idea that he is with, or using the WCs, but as usual with me, there are three thing needed. Means, motive and oppurtunity. Means and Oppurtunity are both spoken for by the OP, so that only leaves motive, which there seems to be none, because we see only 1 scene with the WCs at the time that he would have been compelled, which means that we dont get a lot of proof. So I agree, but there is no proven reason for Dem to be using the WCs.
6
Anubis: 2003-08-01
its not probable yeah, cause if it was then it wouldnt be a theory... but it is really nice. a new angle. nice work. i like it. dont know if i believe it, but i like it.
7
moridin68: 2003-08-01
I believe there is a reference in tLoC, that states that Demandred is working somewhere in the west, but his location is unknown exactly. This was brought up in one of the meetings of the Forsaken that took place in T'A'R. This puts him in the right neighborhood, and I can see how useful the WC could be.
I don't remember who mentioned it already, but someone said something about the WC, and the dragonsworn running rampant in Tarabon, and Arad Domon. This could be a HUGE thing, if Demandred is controlling both groups. It could potentially be forcing Rand's hand into a truce with the Seanchan, which puts him in danger of the male a'dam. Very interesting... Great theory.
8
juitzhead: 2003-08-02
Vaughn, it was Sammael whilst speaking to Graendal. Oh how I wish Sammeal didn't die before revealing what he knew about Dem.
"You think not? Not even if he learns where you all are?" That smile deepened. "I am sure I know what
Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and
Lanfear? Moghedien?" - LOC, CH23
He cut in sharply. "You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to."
Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. 'Tell him
to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it." - LOC, Ch6
9
Mairashda: 2003-08-02
yes, as of "glimmers" there are some strong ties between the whitecloaks' camp and the blight and since demandred is basically the only forsaken unaccounted for it would seem only appropriate that he were with them. as for demandred messing with the seanchan and their conquest of the south... I think semirhage would have to say something about that: those conquests do not date back to her time with the sea folk and she would not enjoy another forsaken meddling with her niche.
10
Callandor: 2003-08-02
**"So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it." - LOC, Ch6**
It's interesting to note that the Whitecloaks (Niall at least who was commanding them) wanted to carve out Almoth Plain again for their control in TGH.
11
Vaughn882: 2003-08-05
I think it is very possible that Demandred had something to do with the Seanchan attacking the Fortress of Light. It is well known that him, semhirage, and mesaana work together. So i think that it is very possible that the whole thing with the seanchan and the white cloaks ws orchestrated by semi and demandred.
12
Crazy Ashaman: 2003-08-10
I certainly like this theory. But as Rand-AlThor said, what motive does he have? Certainly he would be sowing chaos, but I doubt that would be enough for poor ol Demandred to put so much effort into it. I would not imagine him seeing the WC's as a well trained army, and juitzhead has certainly shown enough evidence to support Demandred's involvement here.
My theory is that he originally started the WC's plan of building a powerbase in Arad Domon (IIRC, the questioners had a large hand in that) before LTT ruined his plans. I know this is thin. There is not a whole lot of evidance that I can find other than Bornhald was recieving directions from Jaichim Carridin in TGR.
In TGR (Seanchan) Carridin sends word to Bornhald: "He says you are moving too many men to close to Toman Head. He says the Darkfriends on Almoth Plain must be rooted out, and you are ... you are to turn back at once and ride toward the heart of the plain".
Now what we know is that Semi has her hand in the Seanchan plans, and Bornhald was moving close to interfering with the Seanchan (and did when he disobeyed orders).
I fall in line with those who also thinks that Demandred has been influencing the prophet. But once again, why?
Sadly we have seen too little of the WC's to know more. I have been curious to how they are faring in Ghealdan.
Great theory juitzhead!
13
Anubis: 2003-08-10
well, messing with the prophet does several things. it indirectly attacks rand, people who think the prophet is endorsed by the dragon would be much less likely to support said dragon. it creates chaos, good to follow the dark ones orders. and it also creates a weak and divided population that would be incredibly easy to conquer later. demandred does plan on ruling eventually.
14
silverwolf: 2003-08-13
I took the bad smell in the whitecloak's camp as a hint that the ghost problem in So Habor was more widespread than anyone first believed. I just don't think that a gateway would be out of sight and still allow Valda to catch a whiff of the smell. The rest of the theory seems plausible, though.
15
mako0424: 2003-12-23
I thought this was kind of obvious. Look at White cloaks, they, for all they want to help the light, come off more as darkfriends helping the dark one. Accusing everyone of being Dark and killing and hating all Aes Sedai, ias well as another valuable army for the Dark side to manipulate to use in the Last Battle. Also remember Demandred is an excellent general. I would have to agree that maybe he is manipulating both Masema and the Dragonsworn as well as the Whitecloaks, ensuing both panic, chaos, and disension. Huting rand, helping Dark one, and being a generally nasty Forsaken.
But i would also guess that Demandred would have proxies in power, but he would be close to manipulate both as well, thererfore i think it more likely that he resides as someone in the Whitecloaks, someone we have seen probably.
Maybe a high Inquisitor?
16
davood: 2004-11-25
We have been told by RJ that we have NOT seen demandreds alter ego.
17
Aiel Finn: 2004-11-26
I think the WC would be ideal for one of the forsaken's top generals to control. They are the only truly organized, strong military force in Randland. Furthermore, most rulers are not strong enought to really oppose the WC and they can condemn anyone they want. The only more unstoppable forces are the Sanchean, the Aiel, and the Prophet's masses. The Sanchean are under Semhi, the Aiel arn't centeralized enough without Rand and the Prophet may be under Demandred's control as well. I think this theory is great.
18
Ron al Doskam: 2004-11-30
I'm not sure about the Gateway, but in general I agree with the fact that the whole area of Murandy, Northern Altera and Ghealdan is victim of the actions of Demi.
As for why, it seem very clear to me. In the Guide we were told that Demi is a great general and only second to LTT. For him it would not be unpossible to manage several armies. If you look at the events starting from the invasion of Tarabon it is clear that these actions are conducted by a very skilled general. Especially the combination of land, sea and air units, like the fist of heavens.
So reading the millitairy actions there can be nno duobt that Demi is in control over several forces.
First the Seanchan army gets its orders via Suroth who is IMO a proxy of Demi.
Secondly the Prophets army is also under control of Demi via Masema.
The WC-army could be, after alle they retreated of the battle field, when King Roedran of Amidica thought that he could lead a army and was slaughtered.
This can also give an indication of the where abouts of Demi. And I think that he could (or should) hide somewhere in Murandy. As for why, that is quite simple. The most important factor in the Last Battle would be Andor, see the foretellings of Elaida. From Lugard (a place which we almost know nothing about, but lies on several important trade routes crossings) he can hide without showing himself and is very near the place which would be the most likely place where the most important battle should take place. And the events in Andor aren't yet settled, plus a third of the ruling houses is within the borders, and the Band is there. And we can be certain that he knows we there leader is.
Of course this is only based on the information of the millitairy actions which have been conducted in that area. But if you follow the art of warfare, this one of the most possible lines of action of a great general.
19
The Librarian: 2005-12-25
I have always believed that many inquisitors, almost definitely Asunawa, are dark friends. Look at them: keeping a bit apart from the WCs, torturing people, blaming others to be dark friends. And everything I have read about asunawa points to that direction. So the forsaken who messes with the WCs doesn't necessarily have to even compulse him.
20
Callandor: 2005-12-30
**I have always believed that many inquisitors, almost definitely Asunawa, are dark friends. Look at them: keeping a bit apart from the WCs, torturing people, blaming others to be dark friends. And everything I have read about asunawa points to that direction.**
It paints them in a bad light, yes, but it's not always indicitive of Darkfriends. Sure, they probably have some moral problems and a very skewed sense of "truth" and "confession," but it's not quite evidence for being a Darkfriend. After all, if dang Tinkers can be Darkfriends, there's hardly a strict standard for seeing what's pointing to being "evil."
21
Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-11
I posted this in Demandred's identity already but to support this theory, Ishamael is suspected of creating the WCs, the BA, and having a hand in creating the Senchan (as Hawkwing's advisor). Mesaana, Semihage, and Demandred are known for working together. Mesaana has taken over for Ishamael in the BA, and Semihage is suspected to be Anath or some other Senchan. Wouldn't it make sense for Demandred to have taken a position among the WCs? Not directly a WC because RJ said we are yet to meet Demandred's alter ego, but he may be pulling the strings of a Lord Captain or,as you suggest, the High Inquisitor.
22
Callandor: 2006-02-12
I don't think I've ever heard a reference for Ishamael having created the Whitecloaks. They started out as a peaceful order preaching against the Shadow, at a time it's believed that Ishamael was still sealed away (after Hawkwing's Emprire collapsed, and presumably long enough so that Ishamael was back in the Bore).
Demandred could be in there, but I doubt it's because Ishamael created them (since I don't think he did).
23
Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-13
I had heard he was free at the time and was pretending to be Luthair Mantelar, but again, this is just a theory I read on another site and I thought it should be mentioned. Im not sure I belive that part myself...
24
Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-13
Also Ishamael is mentioned to have been "half caught". I belive it was Lanfear who said that but it could have been a forsaken at the meating in TAR that Nynaeve and Birgitte eavesdroped on.
25
jason wolfbrother: 2006-02-13
We know he was out for about 40 years every thousand or so. the first was the Trolloc Wars period. He was Ba'alzamon then. Leading the Trolloc Hordes as they ravaged the land. the second was when he was Hawkwing's advisor. here are the quotes
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 14 - The Stag and Lion
"Fool, I have never been bound!" The fires of his face roared so hot that Rand stepped back, sheltering behind his hands. The sweat on his palms dried from the heat. "I stood at Lews Therin Kinslayer's shoulder when he did the deed that named him. It was I who told him to kill his wife, and his children, and all his blood, and every living person who loved him or whom he loved. It was I who gave him the moment of sanity to know what he had done. Have you ever heard a man scream his soul away, worm? He could have struck at me, then. He could not have won, but he could have tried. Instead he called down his precious One Power upon himself, so much that the earth split open and reared up Dragonmount to mark his tomb.
"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed.**
No connection I have ever heard of or read to connect Ishamael to Lothair Mantelar. Especially considering this little tidbit
**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Children of the Light: A society holding strict ascetic beliefs, dedicated to the defeat of the Dark One and the destruction of all Darkfriends. Founded during the War of the Hundred Years by Lothair Mantelar (LOH-thayr MAHNtee-LAHR) to proselytize against increasing numbers of Darkfriends, they evolved during the war into a completely military organization, extremely rigid in their beliefs and completely certain that only they know the truth and the right. They hate Aes Sedai, considering them, and any who support or befriend them, Darkfriends. They are known disparagingly as Whitecloaks; their sign is a golden sunburst on a field of white.**
Hawkwing's death sparked off the War of the Hundred Years and Ishamael was his advisor during and afterward so it is unlikely he would also be Lothair Mantelar as well.
