es Sedai and Warder bonds.
by Alcair Dareis: 2004-04-28 | Not yet rated
I have another hesitant theory that might prove an interesting point for anyone who really thinks about it.
I am re-reading the series, slowly, since I have jumbles of homework, but as I was reading about certain Green Ajah of the Salidar Aes Sedai, I began thinking, "Can Warders feel the other Warders through their Aes Sedai?"
I believe that they can, though I don't have books for direct quotes.
Because a Warder can feel all of the emotion and a detached section of their pain, as well as vice versa, then why shouldn't he(or she) also be aware of other Warders that their Aes Sedai have within her mind? I don't have any conclusive evidence, of course, because Warders belonging to Green Ajah haven't been given POV sections or had their personalities described to us at length. I seem to remember, though, that when one of the Caemlyn Aes Sedai(From Salidar) spoke of the loss of one of her Warders, the other was quite...similar. Now, this could be due to the fact that the Aes Sedai was in major mourning and pain, but would he not also feel the pain himself, as well as the snapping loss of the other Warder?
I don't see any reason why this shouldn't go through, because if you cut off a shared computer from a network, not only does the server suffer, but so do the individual nodes within the ring. Sometimes it's just because of a loss of resources, but sometimes connections have been made(through the server of course) between one node and the other, so when it suddenly disappears, it creates a stumbling block for a while.
Also, I believe that Rand should faintly be able to feel Birgitte, and her him, through Elayne. Therefore, Birgitte would be able to feel Min and Aviendha over time, if in a more detached way than her bond to Elayne. If they were far apart, then I think that the inter-Warder 'bond' that's created over time, would be so small they would not know other than that they were alive, perhaps not even that if it were far enough. Aes Sedai and Warders can faintly tell which direction each other is at distances, but like a computer network, you could be creating connections with someone even though they are thousands of miles away, or right next door. I think the thin 'bond' going between Warders themselves is only a connection of souls. As if they were alike as friends, but there was something on a much deeper level, allowing them to communicate easier, finish each other's sentences, or even detect emotion through the steely exterior. Just an idea I thought rather intriguing, but if I have thoughts, I don't see why I shouldn't develop and expand them.
"Suravye ninto manshima taishite,"
Peace favor your sword,
-Alcair Dareis
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-07-14
(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
We're all waiting with bated breath to see ifJordan expands on the new aspects of the Warder Bond he's introduced over the last few books. Not only Warder Bond, but First-Sister Bond as well. Until we get more info all we can do is speculate. This theory is as good as any I've seen on the subject. Good analogy with the computer network.
2
Callandor: 2004-07-14
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue
For the first time, Elayne realized that saidar was to be part of this. She had thought it would be just a ceremony, pledges exchanged, perhaps oaths given. What was going to happen? It did not matter, except. . . .Her steps dragged as she moved toward Monaelle. "My warder. . . .Our bond. . . .Will she be. . . .affected. . . by this?" Aviendha, coming to face her, had frowned when Elayne hesitated, but at the question, she swung startled eyes to Monaelle. Clearly, it was something she had not thought of.
The short Wise One shook her head. "No one outside this chamber can be touched by the weaves. *She may sense some part of what you share with each other, because of her bond with you, but only a very little.*" Aviendha heaved a sigh of relief that Elayne echoed.**
First sister bond being different then the Warder bond, it could be between other Warders. Need more information so far.
3
Zaela Sedai: 2004-07-14
Good theory, though I don't agree with it. I think that the "bundles" of emotion for Greens are seperate from each other, and therefore the Warders would not feel each other. Elayne modified the warder bond with the first sister bond in order to create the unique bond the she shares with Rand, Min and Avi.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 12 - A Lily in Winter
"There's a trick Elayne told me," Min said hurriedly, catching hold of Birgitte's sleeve. "It didn't work for me, but maybe. . . ." Unfortunately, once she had explained. . . .
"She's still there," Birgitte said grimly after a moment. "Step out of my way, Min Farshaw," she said, pulling her arm free, "or-"
That quote says Elayne is still there, if Rand was there too, woudn't it say they were still there?
TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 10 - A Blazing Beacon
She missed Rand terribly, and yet she could not miss him. A part of him, the sense of him, rode always in the back of her head unless she masked the bond, right alongside her sense of Birgitte, her other Warder.
This one distinguishes the two as separate as well.
TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 12 - A Lily in Winter
Carefully she wove Spirit, a flow of over a hundred threads, every thread placed just so, and laid the weave on Aviendha sitting on the floor, then did the same to Min on the table's edge. In a way, they were not two separate weaves at all. They glowed with a precise similarity, and it seemed that looking at one, she saw the other as well. These were not the weaves used in the adoption ceremony, but they used the same principles. They included; what happened to one meshed in that weave, happened to all in it. As soon as the weaves were in place, she passed the lead of the circle of two to Aviendha. The weaves already made remained, and Aviendha immediately wove identical weaves around Elayne, and around Min again, blending that one until it was indistinguishable from Elayne's before passing control back. They did that very easily now, after a great deal of practice. Four weaves, or rather, three now, yet they all seemed the same weave.
I think that the Warders would have to bonded in this way in order to feel each other.
4
a dragonburned fool: 2004-07-15
I doubt it is so, as You explained it. Because AS feel the emotional state of their Warders not in the emotional state of their own, but in their mind. So AS are not affected by the emotions of their warders, they only feel them. Only death of heavy injury is something that makes the AS feel bad. Rand feels Alanna as a bundle of feelings in his _mind_. The sharing of emotion between Elayne and Birgitte is said to be innormal for bonds.
So bonds make the AS to feel her warder in her mind. And bonds never share minds (thoughts etc.), they share only emotions anf feelings. Warders also feel the AS in their mind (as Rand's example manifests it). So the feelings form one Warder must pass the AS' mind for to do anything else. The AS would keep them in the "bundle" in her mind. A second Warder would be a second bundle (again Rand's example here) and they would stay separated. Because mind state is not transmitted by the bond, the Warder wouldn't see what the AS sees in her mind, so they wouldn't see the another Warders.
Maybe an AS would be capable to do so that two bundles will merge into one, in that case they could maybe feel each other. But we have no indications that this is possible.
5
talera: 2004-07-16
Interesting theory, but I don't think the warders can feel each other directly. However, I do believe its reasonable to assume there is a link, if a little more indirect than in your theory.
We know that the bond creates an awareness between a Warder and their Aes Sedai. Birgitte's feelings affect Elayne; when Birgitte was angry, Elayne found herself wanting to "slap someone". There have also been many other quotes to support this, but I'm too lazy to find them.
So consider an AS that has more than one Warder. The first Warder feels anger, and transmits that to his/her AS. The AS's feelings change to reflect this, and her anger is transmitted to her 2nd Warder through their bond. Because it is only a reflection of emotion, it may not be as strongly felt, but some of it should still filter through.
One quote that supports this is in LoC, when the TAS are taking Rand to the WT. Rand kills two of Erian's warders, and she says to Galina, in reference to her other warders; "They do suffer worse than I, I fear. They do not only feel my suffering, but do suffer because they know I do."
6
minalth: 2004-07-25
I thaught it was obvious how warders could slightly feel each other... a metaphor for it...
OK
you have a round picture that is the AS's mind, and another that is the warder's mind. When they are bonded, a thumbnail of the warder's mind is superimposed over part of the AS's mind.
This explains why the AS can't tell much about their warder's minds, the thumbnail is not detailed because it is so small, only a general impression is gained. The warders also has a similar thumbnail of the AS in their mind.
SO, when a warder is bonded by an AS that already has a warder, either warder has a thumbnail of the AS's mind in their mind, and part of that thumbnail is the other warder's mind, but as it is a thumbnail of a thumbnail it is hardly knoticable, and maybe special circumstances are needed for it to be knoticed or something...
I hope that made sense, I think it is a good analogy myself, the AS has a picture which represents her mind, and it has two thumbnails of the warder number 1 and 2's minds. Warder number 1 has a picture with a thumbnail of the AS's mind and in that is the now tiny thumbnail of a thumbnail of warder 2's mind.
7
Callandor: 2004-07-26
**SO, when a warder is bonded by an AS that already has a warder, either warder has a thumbnail of the AS's mind in their mind, and part of that thumbnail is the other warder's mind, but as it is a thumbnail of a thumbnail it is hardly knoticable, and maybe special circumstances are needed for it to be knoticed or something...**
But what proof do you have of it? Tovine can semi-sense Logain's mind. Gabrelle can semi-sense Logain's mind. But we have no indication at all that Tovine or Gabrelle can sense either ors mind to any degree what so ever. In fact, just the opposite.
**TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue
Briefly she wondered what was keeping Gabrelle. The other sister bonded to Logain had the same instruction she did, and until now, she had always been here first. Gabrelle was eager, studying the Asha'man as if she intended writing a book on the subject. Perhaps she did; Browns would write about anything. She put the other sister out of her mind. Although, if Gabrelle did turn up late, she would have to find out how the woman had managed it. For now, she had her own studying.**
This is Tovine's PoV, and she wonders what's keeping Gabrelle. The very least thing of the warder to warder link should be the location. Yet, Tovine follows Logain's location to his house. She does not at all suspect Gabrelle is in his house.
The first-sister bond does hint to Birgitte feeling something, very small, of Avi and Elayne, but that is not the same as the classic Warder bond.
So really, we have no reason to suppose the bonds would link over each other and allow Warders to sense each other to any degree. All the bonds could just as easily stay as seperate "zones" of the Aes Sedai with seperations between Warders.
8
blackfiremage: 2004-08-01
minalth had an interesting point. the emotions are usually referred to as knots so in the warder's mind there is a knot of AS emotions. An the AS knot there is a mini knot that is just like the AS knot ekcept this one is one of her other warders because she has Warder knots in her head. I hope that this was clear
