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shamael, T'A'R, and Dreamwalking

by Aendur: 2004-12-28 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

Think back, far back, to TEotW. Remember Ishy in the heads of our three young heros, in their OWN dreams, NOT T'A'R? (correct me if I'm wrong, oh quotemasters, but you can't bring someone into T'A'R against their will, can you?) In any case, his harrassment of their dreams stops shortly before they reach the Eye, presumably because of Moiraine's protection (which, if you recall, hasn't worked too well in the past). Now, on to my theory:

The Dreams stopped because the Forsaken were being freed at the point. Lanfear later takes over planting dreams in their heads, but we know of her as a skilled Dreamwalker. Ishy, we never hear any mention of skill in that area, but he obviously did a horribly difficult task: controlled another person's dream. Egwene frequently and embarassingly capitulates to the whims of the dreamer who's mind she enters (e.g. Rhuarc, Gawyn), and they aren't conciously TRYING to make her do anything. Rand (and, presumably, the others) are semi-lucid and trying actively to make them stop, but Ishy keeps coming.

We don't know WHERE exactly Ishy remains for the 3000 years he's half-bound.

My conclusion is this: he was in T'A'R, similar to the Heros of the Horn who stay there, but less firmly held and without the prohibition on being seen (hence why he could enter dreams, and talk). Existing almost wholly in T'A'R, he might either

A) gain natural strength in Dreamwalking from being a creature of dreams

OR

B)have 3000 years to practice.

I think it likely it is either B or a combination. However, this leaves us with the problem of why he hasn't entered dreams since then. Perhaps he is not used to doing it from a living body, has not had a reason to, or can't enter T'A'R easily anymore.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2005-02-11

Actually, while I am not searching for a quote at this moment, you can bring a dreamer into T'A'R which Perrin sees Ishamael do when he kills the individual in front. The dreams of every person are found in the GOI (read our T'A'R study for an explanation). Egwene and Ishamael use the GOI to find dreams; they can either enter, speak in them, or drag that person into T'A'R. I am not sure how that fact changes your theory; however, I think it is more likely he has less time to chase dreams, since all of the Forsaken are loose, and events are changing too rapidly. He likely still uses T'A'R even now, but on more precise missions, considering the power out in the world now, like the Ashaman, who can ruin his plans if Ishamael runs around dream chasing.

2

WinespringBrother: 2005-02-11

IIRC, one of the dreamwalking wise ones said that a dreamwalker can drag someone into a separate dream, i.e. not TAR or the dreamwalker's own dream, which the dreamwalker would still control.

3

bigjellybeans: 2005-02-13

The Shadow Rising chapter 52 titled 'Need'. Nynaeve, Amys, Bair, and Egwene are discussing how Nynaeve can speak to the Panarch.

"If I cannot enter her dream, can I bring her into the world of dreams? I need some way to talk to her." "we would not teach you that if we knew how" Amys said hitching her shawl angrily. "It is an evil thing you ask, Nynaeve sedai.

"She would be helpless here as you would in her dream." Bair's voice sounded like an iron rod. " It has been handed down among dreamwalkers since the first that no one must ever be brought into the dream. It was said that was the way of the shadow in the last days of the age of legends."

I never was a big quote master so I am quite proud of this one.

4

a dragonburned fool: 2005-02-14

Aendur, I cannot understand some of Your basic statements. First your main question: why the Dreams stopped. What moment of stopping the Dreams do you mean? From your text I got the impression, that you are speaking about stopping of dreams already before the Eye scene. As I remember many Baalzamon dreams in tGH and tDR, actually until Ishamaels death, this couldn't be your statement. So when was the stopping of Dreams you are speaking about?

Second, are you stating that the first Dreams in tEotW are nor TAR but own dreams of the three amigos? I can recall only one Perrin's dream when Baalzamon comes for an while into Perrin's dream when he breaks the defense of the wolf. But this can be either an exception because of Perrin's wolf guard, or the wolves could move Perrin's dream to Tar where it functioned like the floating nightmares.

Third, why do you think that the freeing of the Forsaken will stop Ishamael to enter Dreams? When Ishamael meet Lanfear in TAR and they quarrel Ishamael still behaves like it is his own right to command there, whatever Lanfear claimed against him.

btw entering somebody's dreams is not so difficult. Asmodean is not a skilled Dreamwalker but he enters Rand's dream while Lanfear was there, so it's not so impossible to do it...

5

Aiel Finn: 2005-02-14

I think that all the dreams with the Forsaken are in T'A'R. When Perrin dreams with wolves, it's always been in T'A'R. His dreams otherwise have all been normal, no wolf dreams (example while with the Tinkers). Rand wakes up with thorns in his hands, this sounds an awful lot like something like T'A'R to me. Furthermore, all the dreams with the Forsaken specifically mention the weird half-light like in T'A'R. Finally, both Ishy and Lanfear would be more powerful in T'A'R and would thus use that against the 3.