oiraine/Lanfear, Finns, Power Strength and Bonds
by leitan sedai: 2005-09-16 | 5.67 out of 10 (6 votes)
I have seen hints of parts of this, but never the ideas as a whole. Forgive me if I'm just restating old stuff, but here goes:
When Moiraine and Lanfear fell/fought through the doorway in Cairhien, it melted in an explosion of flames. The intensity resembles what happens when channelers draw too much Power with destructive purposes (i.e. Ellisande's destruction of Manetheren, and LTT's creation of Dragonmount). Earthquakes, flames too intense to approach,etc. The doorway, created by the OP and difficult to tip over (much less destroy) is melted into a smoking lump.
TITLE: Fires of Heaven,CHAPTER: 53 - Fading Words
"In the depths of a shrinking Void, Rand saw Moiraine hurtle seemingly out of nowhere to grapple with Lanfear. The attacks on him ceased as the two women plunged through the doorframe ter'angreal in a flash of white light that did not end; it filled the subtly twisted redstone rectangle as though trying to flood through and striking some invisible barrier. Lightnings arched silver and blue around the ter'angreal, more and more violently; rasping buzzes crackled through the air[...]The doorframe itself was beginning to smoke, though it was stone, a white, acrid smoke that gathered thickly under the gray dome."
I like the references I've seen of an "OD of the OP"; it fits.
So here's my theory:
1. Lanfear was burned out.
She was drawing massive amounts of power through the bracelet when it was ripped from her. If that in itself did not burn her out, she was angry enough to lose control in her attempt to beat Moiraine and everyone else defying her.
2. While she may not have died in the fight (she WAS "held" by the finns, after all), she may have bargained to be "reconnected" to the OP. Their sense of humor being what it is, would have likely led them to leave her weaker in the Power if she asked to be Healed.
Now, at the point where Lanfear reappears as Cyndane, Nynaeve has already discovered how to Heal Severing and shared it with the Aes Sedai in Salidar. One of the Black Ajah may have been employed by the DO (or the Finns) to Heal Lanfear. Since women can't heal other women as flawlessly as men are able, this would explain why she's weaker in the Power. She reappears before any Ashaman know how to Heal Severing.
3. Moiraine may have also been burned out in her battle with Lanfear, perhaps as a result of the massive amounts of Power used in destroying the doorway. This is a second way to sever the warder bond, so Lan would not have felt her connection any longer. Because of this, she can't use the Power to get away from the Finns. It could also be why she can't use Fire for her protection. Hence, the importance of a rescue.
*I do like Mat's connection to her rescue, and theories on his use of firesticks against the finns. Thom's importance in the need for music is also intriguing.
The DO seems to be the only one who can thus far bring people back to life, so I doubt Moiraine's dead. Judging from everyone's knowledge of the finns, she was only a little less ignorant of their ways, and the need to ask for a way out. She probably didn't bargain for her release. With her focus on Rand and the Last Battle, I would imagine she asked to be alive for the LB rather than thinking of her need to leave Finnland in the meantime. Maybe she's trying to figure out how to use them to her & Rand's advantage in the long run (she is cairhienin, after all).
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2005-10-10
I think you are right, I don't think I have seen an overdose causing the "fire" reaction tied to this event. Many of us have guessed that Moiraine or Lanfear was burned out in the past. However, we haven't seen a woman or man be healed after they were burned out. But, I think I would like to see Moiraine come back, if she does, burned out. Somehow, I think she would be able to get Rand's attention in a way that Cadsuane is unable to do at this time. Lanfear being burned out works in the sense that we know she was held by the Finns. She then bargaining to get the OP back...an interesting idea, I like it. However, Jordan recently said the Finns cannot transmigrate or hold a soul. So, reconnecting her to her old body...I don't know, I think OP explosions like those that have been seen during the burning out of an individual, have killed the individuals too. But we know Lanfear lived. An interesting idea that does connect a few dots, but I still think there are a few things that would be hard to explain.
2
Callandor: 2005-10-10
**Now, at the point where Lanfear reappears as Cyndane, Nynaeve has already discovered how to Heal Severing and shared it with the Aes Sedai in Salidar. One of the Black Ajah may have been employed by the DO (or the Finns) to Heal Lanfear. Since women can't heal other women as flawlessly as men are able, this would explain why she's weaker in the Power. She reappears before any Ashaman know how to Heal Severing.**
But, you cannot establish a chain, without just suggesting theres a random Black Ajah in Salidar. So far, we only know of Delana, and we can clear her quite simply becuase she wasn't present for any of the Healing of stilling.
Also, as Tam said, stilling is different from burned out. Stilling is able to be Healed -- being burned out is fundamentally different, and from what we know of it now, impossible to be Healed.
3
icspots: 2005-10-18
When did they say that Stilling was fundamentaly different from Burning out? Remember in the Age of Legends they referred to both as Severing. Also Either Egwene or Nynaeve said something about stilling/burning out was like have two words for falling down the stairs, one for if you tripped and one for if someone pushed you.
Not arguing, just curious.
4
mako0424: 2005-10-19
I agree with the latter theory, about burning out and stilling, it was originally stated to be inherently the same thing, just different causes, but we saw that later, especially with Setalle Anan, that burning out seems more permanent in that you cannot sense the true Source, but this doesnt neccessarily imply it cant be healed anyways.
I should think it could be Healed, very similarly to Stilling, but with maybe a slightly different weave, and Callandor, Salidar contains tons of Aes'Sedai, one or two are most likely going to be Black Ajah or something, or at least manage to obtain sight of someone performing the weave. Hell, Semirhage might know, Delana may not be a great healer, but she could perform the weave for someone who was at the very least, similar to Sorilea performing the Traveling weave for Cadsuane.
This would also explain Lanfears drop in power, maybe, but it seems Siuan dropped by at least half her previous potential, and even though Lanfear was the strongest female channeler, i dont see if she was Healed by same sex Aes Sedai, how she could still be more powerful than Graendal, which Cyndane is.
So this is unexplained, but I like the idea that Moiraine asked to be kept alive, probably having gone in knowing she would be rescued, so her other two wishes could have been used accordingly. ie. kill lanfear, help Rand, etc.
5
Cyberkil: 2005-10-19
Warning: Knife of Dreams Spoiler
Mako0424: "I agree with the latter theory, about burning out and stilling, it was originally stated to be inherently the same thing, just different causes, but we saw that later, especially with Setalle Anan, that burning out seems more permanent in that you cannot sense the true Source, but this doesnt neccessarily imply it cant be healed anyways."
I haven't had time to double check this, but it seems to me that Setalle can still sense the source and see weaves. In KoD, when Bethamin is getting slapped, after Mat stops them, Setalle tells one of the Aes Sedai to release the shield on the Sul' dam and they are surprised that it seemed she know which one held the shield. She seemed to cover it with an excuse about there being a 50/50 chance or something. (My book is making the rounds so I don't have the quote.) Of course, Setalle didn't mention if she was burned out or stilled so who knows and I don't rememebr it being mentioned elsewhere.
Mako0424: "This would also explain Lanfears drop in power, maybe, but it seems Siuan dropped by at least half her previous potential, and even though Lanfear was the strongest female channeler, i dont see if she was Healed by same sex Aes Sedai, how she could still be more powerful than Graendal, which Cyndane is."
Cyndane can't have been healed of stilling/burn out. She is still too powerful. My guess is that her reduction in power is due to her new body. Since Stilling can be Healed, it must be body dependent although the ability to channel must be soul dependent. When the Dark One transmigrates people to a new body, the ability goes with them, but the amount depends on the current body's connection. The only other examples we know of transmigrations (Osan'gar and Aran'gar) don't give us any information about relative strength before or after.
6
Callandor: 2005-10-19
**I should think it could be Healed, very similarly to Stilling, but with maybe a slightly different weave, and Callandor, Salidar contains tons of Aes'Sedai, one or two are most likely going to be Black Ajah or something, or at least manage to obtain sight of someone performing the weave. Hell, Semirhage might know, Delana may not be a great healer, but she could perform the weave for someone who was at the very least, similar to Sorilea performing the Traveling weave for Cadsuane.**
Problem with this:
1. Delana was not present for the Healing.
2. If there are more Black Ajah in Salidar, how come Halima only works with Delana?
3. Even if there are more Black Ajah in Salidar, they're complete unknowns and suppositions. You can't establish an effective chain that runs from the learner of the weave to the one that performed the Healing.
4. Do you see Semirhage Healing the one she hates the most? Do you see Lanfear accepting it? The Forsaken don't even trust each other enough to draw on the source without being suspicious as all hell. And it's even refered to that none of the Forsaken, at least in Aran'gar's opinion, would accept Healing from Semirhage.
**I haven't had time to double check this, but it seems to me that Setalle can still sense the source and see weaves.**
No, she's a burned out Aes Sedai. She just knows the usage of the One Power when she sees it (like people going ridged for no apparent reason -- obviously bound by Air).
**The only other examples we know of transmigrations (Osan'gar and Aran'gar) don't give us any information about relative strength before or after.**
Showing there's no change. Aran'gar pissing and moaning about being put into a new female body would surely complain about being weaker in strength than before -- Osan'gar as Dashiva was refered to numerous times as nearly equallying Rand in strength, just like Aginor nearly equaled Lews Therin in strength, again no mention of power loss.
7
Aravan: 2005-10-21
Based on what we know of the DO and his ability to transmigrate souls it seems likely that Lanfear was simply killed when her and Moiraine fell through the ter'angreal doorway. It seems very plausible that being caught off-guard while channeling such enormous amounts of the Power, along with crossing the barrier of the ter'angreal would be enough to kill her. Obviously that is difficult to actually substantiate though.
As far as the fact that after having her soul transmigrated to Cyndane by the DO, Lanfear has experienced a loss in the amount of the Power she can handle, I would have a hard time believing that it is related to the body she now holds. Considering that Balthamel was reincarnated as a woman yet still channels saidin it would seem that which part of the Power a person can work with is based on their soul and not their body. Furthermore, I would think that if the amount of the Power a transmigrated soul could handle was limited by their body then we would have probably seen Aran'gar or Osan'gar make some mention of a power loss.
I would suspect that it is far more likely that Lanfear has been 'restricted' as a punishment by the DO. Considering the fact that she was actively helping Rand along the way and had even gone so far as to talk openly in front of Asmodean about challenging the DO with the access key ter'angreal (in Rhuidean)it seems likely that he would have been able to learn of such. In truth, it seems like her loss of power is a cruel twist on what she did to Asmodean to restrict him so he could teach Rand how to channel the male half of the Source.
In effect, I find myself wondering if this is meant to be a rather cruel joke on Lanfear.
8
Callandor: 2005-10-23
**Based on what we know of the DO and his ability to transmigrate souls it seems likely that Lanfear was simply killed when her and Moiraine fell through the ter'angreal doorway.**
But she herself says she was "held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn."
She wasn't killed outright at least at first -- and you can easily build a case that she was never killed at all.
**Furthermore, I would think that if the amount of the Power a transmigrated soul could handle was limited by their body then we would have probably seen Aran'gar or Osan'gar make some mention of a power loss.**
Yes, it's hard to see finding two other channeling bodies perfectly acceptable for their Forsaken level channeling -- yet not a third.
Note: I would put Ishamael/Moridin there as a third already, and a fourth body for Cyndane, but I decided to say with simplicity for the time being and not bring up an arguement whether Moridin is effected or not (I say not).
**I would suspect that it is far more likely that Lanfear has been 'restricted' as a punishment by the DO.**
How?
**In truth, it seems like her loss of power is a cruel twist on what she did to Asmodean to restrict him so he could teach Rand how to channel the male half of the Source.**
Yes, it's fitting poetic justice -- but that doesn't mean the Dark One did it.
9
mako0424: 2005-10-24
I have to agree with Callandor and others that it has become apparent that the channeler's body has no affect on their previous channeling potential, ie. Balthamel to Halima, who still is a very strong channeler and Aginor to Oran'gar.
So why is Cyndane/Lanfear have less ability, still hard to determine, but i do not think it would be a punishment imposed by the Dark One, and as stated above, obviously not restricted because of the channeler's body, so we come to a few possibilties. The Finns or Moiraine had some initial influence, or she could have been imporoperly Healed, or she is being punished or externally restricted.
I would have to lean towards the first, but it doesn't go to say that the other two can be totally discounted, but we have seen that Moghedian's strength has not been affected, and Moridin has enough control with the cour'souvra to not need to impose a shield of some sort.
Also, the being imporperly headed, ie same sex channeler, is a possibility, but doesn't account for her drop in strength because it is to minor, and addressing Callandor's counter points in reference to mine.
1. It doesn't matter if delana saw the Healing of Siuan or Leane directly, because we know almost every Sedai, particularly Yellows were excperimenting with it constantly right afterwards, a new discovery would not go ignored or unpracticed, so Delana could have had plenty of time to see it somewhere.
We know this because even hours and days later nynaneve is getting pissed because the Yellows say her weaving is sloppy and some had even shown greater Talent for it than her.
Why did Halima only attach herself to Delana, well we dont know for sure if she talked to any other possible Blacks, and besides, she can attach herself to one, who by the way is a powerful Sitter who holds sway with both Romanda's and Lelaine's factions, and could order any other black through Delana saving her own alias secret.
10
mako0424: 2005-10-24
And in quick reply, to Setalle Anan's situation.
I think for sure she was burned out, and she is the Aes Sedai who studied Ter'angreal, as witnessed when she shows huge interest in Mat's ter'angreal and says Cadsuane has one too.
But we know she cant sense the True Source like those who are stilled, but we know there is still something because when she puts on the a'dam when Joline is still in Ebou Dar, she feels a huge pain, which if she had no ability would have been as if it was put onto a table.
I think Setalle Anan will be Healed.
11
Dumai Wells: 2005-10-24
I do believe that Lanfear was burned out. I also believe that she was killed by the finns after they "held her". I'll tell all of you exactly what happend. I fimrly believe this so dont argue! Lanfear was burned out when she fell through the doorway with moiraine. The finns are there they ask their questions etc. The first thing lanfear does is ask for her channeling ability to be restored, the finns restore it, but not at her full strength. Guess what happens next? They "set the price" by killing her and that is when the DO transmigrate's her. We know for sure that she had to have died, how else can she be cyndane? The DO is the one who transmigrated her because she is mindtrapped by Moridin for her "mistakes" or whatever you want to call her obsession with Rand. Obviosly, she was acting on her own reasons. But my point is that the finns definately killed lanfear at some point. She's weaker in the power, RJ is definately trying to tell us something important with this. Remember that Aginor also burned himself out in TEOTW but the DO still brought him back as Osangar(Dashiva) and we have no mention of him being any weaker in the power that he was before he was killed. Why is Cyndane weaker? It must be the finns who restored her power. Maybe they didnt know how powerful she was and therefore didnt restore it to the old strength. remember if you dont bargain the price, they always set it and we have seen the human skin and what not so its safe to say that they almost always set the price as death. Moiraine has not bargained yet and therefore they have not killed her. To me, this seems the most logical explaination of this theory.
12
Anubis: 2005-10-24
The thing is... she says she had been stronger before the finns held her. I think... its early. So that implies that it was something that happened to her while the finns held her. I think it was something the finns did to her, to make her pay for whatever.
13
Dumai Wells: 2005-10-24
Nice Anubis! read my thread that's just above yours, I feel the same way
14
Callandor: 2005-10-24
**1. It doesn't matter if delana saw the Healing of Siuan or Leane directly, because we know almost every Sedai, particularly Yellows were excperimenting with it constantly right afterwards, a new discovery would not go ignored or unpracticed, so Delana could have had plenty of time to see it somewhere.**
No, they're not using the weave for stilling after that -- they're experimenting with other weaves to try to find out other uses that can be drawn from it. They say right after Nynaeve does it, that if they alter it this way it would be good for problems of the heart, and this way for other things, etc. It wouldn't be the same weave.
**Why did Halima only attach herself to Delana, well we dont know for sure if she talked to any other possible Blacks, and besides, she can attach herself to one, who by the way is a powerful Sitter who holds sway with both Romanda's and Lelaine's factions, and could order any other black through Delana saving her own alias secret.**
Halima left with Delana. Halima worked only through Delana. Where is the other influence here that you can point to?
**I also believe that she was killed by the finns after they "held her".**
Different arguement -- but why would Cyndane say she was only held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, if they killed her? You would think there was a bit more hatred towards them than simply "held."
**We know for sure that she had to have died, how else can she be cyndane?**
See Lanfear was Artifically Enhanced.
** But my point is that the finns definately killed lanfear at some point.**
Hard to be definate on it, when it's not confirmed -- or truely hinted at.
**Remember that Aginor also burned himself out in TEOTW but the DO still brought him back as Osangar(Dashiva) and we have no mention of him being any weaker in the power that he was before he was killed.**
He overdosed -- he did not burn himself out. Big difference. Overdosing is drawing enough of the One Power that it kills you. Burning out destroys your ability to channel at all, but doesn't kill you. Aginor overdosed the same way Lews Therin overdosed.
**Why is Cyndane weaker? It must be the finns who restored her power.**
In a way, yes. But the way you're looking at it, no. See, Lanfear was Artifically Enhanced.
15
mako0424: 2005-10-25
Callandor i have read the entire theory and line of thinking on Lanfear was Artifically Enhanced (L.A.E)
and im a strong believer, but wouldnt that mean she had already gone through, and they most likely/definitly would have killed her str8 off the bat opposed to holding her at all, and then are you also saying that Cyndane was her original body, or just that Cyndane was how strong she was orginially?
16
Callandor: 2005-10-25
**and im a strong believer, but wouldnt that mean she had already gone through, and they most likely/definitly would have killed her straight off the bat opposed to holding her at all, and then are you also saying that Cyndane was her original body, or just that Cyndane was how strong she was orginially?**
1. It's unknown what the Finn would do with another person entering their realm twice. Probably nothing, since it's hard to make a good argument that she had used that doorway before in the past, and we know there is the Tower of Ghenjei as another enterance to both. Even so, it might be that they've never had the same person enter twice (like Moiraine going to the Green Man twice). And, it's perfectly possible that the price of entering again was to be held there.
2. The theory that I refered to would say it deals with just how Lanfear's strength changed (her beauty is mentioned to be enhanced to Lanfear, but SDog believes she died and was transmigrated). I myseld would say that Cyndane is what Lanfear originally looked like way long time ago before meeting the Finn, and that her strength is also what it used to be. She's just lost the enhancement, but she recieved it so long ago that the Forsaken don't even know about it (they think Lanfear was just herself, not enhanced).
17
Tristin: 2005-10-25
yeah i want to agree badly with this, the thing I can't get past is surely the forsaken (or at least one of them) would remember what she used to look like. If we have a quotemaster maybe someone could get ahold of the description of her by the aielman than worked for her if there is one...i think it talks about it in Rand's vision at the clan-chief ring thing. On the opposite end of this I think there is a quote out there somewhere pointing to the fact (by Asmodean I think) that most of the forsaken don't even remember eachothers real name (so a face might be out of the question). Also maybe none of them really knew what she looked like before she got the switcheroo. Most of them wouldn't have payed that much attention to science news imo.
18
Callandor: 2005-10-25
**yeah i want to agree badly with this, the thing I can't get past is surely the forsaken (or at least one of them) would remember what she used to look like. If we have a quotemaster maybe someone could get ahold of the description of her by the aielman than worked for her if there is one...**
He just says "Mierin Sedai" and never gives a description.
**Also maybe none of them really knew what she looked like before she got the switcheroo.**
That's mainly what I believe. She had this done before anyone really knew her or before she became "famous."
