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atterns in the Pattern (why does everyone ignore the tinkers?)

by HermesApollo: 2005-04-26 | 5 out of 10 (7 votes)

Previous Categories: The Nature of the Bore

First things first, it seems that everybody feels that the tinkers have served their purpose (prelude to the Aiel or left overs) however, i would like to say that i feel they still have a part to play.

The first thing is pattern, it infuses rand-land completely, the basis of all things is the pattern - even the DO doesn't just want to destroy it, just to remake it, hence its importance. Now, the DO and he/it's location at Shayol Ghul is shown as a 'thinness' in the pattern (i cannot find direct quote, my Apologies)a frailty that the DO can reach through to affect or interact with the rest of the world and therefore the pattern. Now this is where the Timkers come in, and more importantly their song. Now, i was thinking ( i know, dangerous but hey) what is a song but a series of Patterns? either singly or laid on top of each other, interacting with each other to form a greater or larger pattern.

With the advancement of each cycle of the pattern, the bore goes from open, to closed but known of to closed and completly unknown of, so eventually the bore has to be sealed and forgotten, and if the bore is sealed then the 'thinness' of the pattern has to be fixed as well. What if the song of the tinkers is that 'seal' to the thiness? Rand and his various legions of good guys may be able to seal the bore, but maybe its the song that will overlay the thinness and help seal away the DO.

To sum up, the tinkers song will seal the other half of the bore, thus helping keep the DO down. Now this is my first theory in many years of reading everyone elses, so lets slip the dogs of WOT shall we
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Tamyrlin: 2005-04-30

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
Most people think the Tinker's song is the seed-singing song featured in Rand's Rhuidean-induced trip down ancestral memory lane. That song is used to keep pests and blight away from crops, and produce large yields. Are you extrapolating to say that song can also be used to repair the damage done to the Pattern by the Bore? Or are you saying that the Tinker's song is not the seed-singing song?


bigjellybeans: 2005-04-30

You know this theory isnt a bad idea. However there are a few problems.

1. The tinkers entire religion involves finding said song. This implies that they do not know the actual song.

2. Even if they find the song however it is they do there most likely is not enough pages in the remaining books for the tinkers to find out a power like that.

and finally..

3. Good luck getting a defensless tinker to go into shayol ghul the heart of all evil just to sing a song.

Like I said the theory is actually very innovative but most unlikely.


NargsBrood: 2005-05-01

wasnt the song the aiel/ogier sang a compliment to what the green man was dancing? how will the song play if there is no green man?

the ogier have to be a part of the song as well, whatever it is for. but again, there are no more green men.

who is it that ignores the tinkers? WOT fans or the folks of randland?

there are many theories out there concerning the tinkers and their part in or before TG.


JakOShadows: 2005-05-01


Your idea is a good one, but instead of thinness in the pattern, it would probably be the seed of regrowth or something like that. Because they don't seem to want to fight in the LB, so why would they go there to sing a song. They seem to take less direct involvement in the outside world than the Ogier, so it seems very unlikely. -I just got an idea, if your idea is right, Aram might be the one that sings it.- Their way of life goes against your idea though, so I think it would be far more likely that they're going to reheal nature around Shayoul Ghul or something along those lines. If you recall when the bore was first opened, they(their ancestors,the Daishan Aeil) sang a song but it didn't do much either, so how would it help now with the thinness.


reTaardad: 2005-05-01

I personally tend to lean toward the idea that the Tinker "song" is more of a symbolic era of change. Ogier still have some songs, evidenced by Loial at the end of The Eye of the World, even if it isn't the seed-singing song from the Age of Legends, but I don't believe that a song or something similar would be able to impact any community such as the Tinkers in a way that they seem to think will entail their discovery of the song. Rather, I am of the concensus that the "song" will be a revivalistic period for the people of Randland, led by the Tinkers, in which violence will be eradicated for the most part and a temporary period of peace will be brought following the ravage of the Last Battle. It sounds a little cheesy and presumptuous, but I can see how condusive this environment would be for growth in the many different groups of the WoT, particularly for Power-wielders. It seems as though the goal of the Light-side is to make a return to a life style similar to the Age of Legends, and the Way of the Leaf played a major part in their society. So it seems natural that the Tinkers, as followers of the Way, will certainly play a role in the future of the Wheel of Time.


Ozymandias: 2005-05-01

I don't think the Tinker's song even exists. I know this has been fairly thoroughly covered, but the Song is probably just some sort of nostalgic remebrance of better times. I think that maybe the song is based on what they remember of the song of growing, but its not that particular song. And im sorry to disagree, but I just can't picture the song being used to patch the Bore


Joar Addam Nesossin: 2005-05-01

I think what Hermes is trying to say (this is the way I understood it) is that the seed-singing song is the song the Tinkers are looking for, but what if that song can do more than just make things grow? What if, when blended with the right herbs and spices...uh....I mean, saidin and saidar, it could be used to reseal the Bore? Just a thought. And another possibility to add on to the pile of millions.


Merk: 2005-05-02

I don't know, I could see the Tinkers doing it. I don't think of them as avoiding all conflict so much as avoiding all violence. Sort of Gandhi or MLK-like - using their moral authority as a weapon instead of fists or steel. I don't think of them as cowards per se and think if they could seal the DO up with a song, I think they would gather holding hands to do so. What's the story about them doing that to try to remind a male channeler who he was (LTT maybe?)? There's some story like that.

As to the actual theory, who knows? Perhaps all the talk of finding the song is major foreshadowing, or perhaps it is just another example of RJ showing how history makes things unrecognizeable.

Does it ever say they need to or will find the song before the LB?


Aiel Finn: 2005-05-02

That may be, or maybe the song or the tinker's absoulute goodness can somehow counteract the blight. It has a nice ring of balance to it.


Aiel Finn: 2005-05-02

I don't know if there's anything saying it will be before the LB, but it seems that finding the song is like the shattering of illusions that the people on Tremlaking talk about. It has to happen before the end of the age.


Jiana: 2005-05-02

Merk: In response to your parenthesised question, it was Jaric Mondoran who killed the 10,000 linked and singing Aiel, who were trying to remind him of who he was. (TSR, "The Dedicated," paperback pg. 429.)

And, since I still can't get the message board to work for me (grrrrr), Congratulations to all who were recently raised! :)


Merk: 2005-05-02

To be clear in my above post (this darned delayed posting means about 4 or 5 replies appeared before mine), I meant I could see the Tinker's being at the LB, though in some sort of non-violent way. I don't think you can just say hey, they wouldn't be there. They could easily be there in some non-obvious, sword and fist kind of way, and I don't think they'd hesitate if they could play an important role without going against their principles. Or perhaps they will have to make the choice between their principles and the greater good of Randland.

However, as evidenced by the rest of my post, I'm not really buying this theory yet that their song will help seal the bore.


a dragonburned fool: 2005-05-04

It is a very interesting idea, HermesApollo, even if the obvious reference to the seed-song's main purpose is important enough for the current situation in th world with it's DO-touched weather, with it's extraordinary weevils, arts and other serious harms for any crops. In the WoTWorld where the magical source has too much similarities with the functioning of waves and resonances, a song (i.e. a system of ordered resonances of weaves) could also match some aspect of the magical background of the world, and the Song could have effect on reinforcement of the Pattern. The Nym is song-related and Someshta's art of presence in the Blight (the Blight is not exactly part of the Pattern, it is something special) and Loial's singing on Someshta's tomb also acting against the Blight would maintain this option.


lurk: 2005-05-04

I like this theory.

It even inspired a thought of my own. What if finding the said song is actually singing their songs at the last battle and realising that it is the song they've been looking for all these years. They started looking for it after the sealing of the bore so there might be a connection there


Sampson: 2005-05-04

I like the idea; I'm not saying it would happen. But during one of my re-reads I also got the impression that the Tinkers have a part to play.

Every time we think that we are done with the Tinkers they pop back into the story.

First we see them with Perrin, Egewene & Elyas.

Then we see the Tinker eye & ears of Moiraine. (which shows they have courage, they just do not do anything violent, so I can see tinkers going to SG)

They pop back up with Perrin in the Two Rivers.

Then the last is a group is killed and the message “Tell the Dragon” or something.

When Rand was going through the Ter'angreal and living his ancestors past lives, the Main female Aes Sedia said that hundreds of the Aiel stood arm in arm signing to one of the Mad male Aes Sedia, and he listened for hours before killing the last one. I do not think they were there singing the seed song while being killed.

We know that music and song have power with in Randland. The Ogier tree song, the Aiel seed song & you can not take music into Finn land.

So I agree that the Tinkers and their song will still play a roll in the up coming books. But I do not know if it will seal the bore. I mean, I assume this time the bore has to be sealed like new for the other turning of the wheel, so it can be bored into again.


Reddrgn: 2005-05-17

There have been several ideas tossed around so far and I think that it is a combination of some of these. The idea of the lost song being found and sang to seal the bore is good but a little on the extreme side.

I think that the Tinkers will indeed gather in large numbers around the area of the last battle when the Dragon fights. Almost out of desperation in knowing the last battle has arrived and that it may be the last place to look for and find the song before the end comes. As others have stated Tinkers are not cowards, they just avoid conflicts and violence.

I think the tinkers will be gathered and observe the battle begin. They will join arm in arm and sing as one, a song that has been revealed to them by a certain lady in blue who has been rescued from beyond.

They will sing this song and it will hearten the Dragon to see them standing together singing their song. I also believe the song will have some sort of effect on the surrounding area, possibly healing Randland for leagues around the battle site. . . just an idea but I think about anything can be possible from this point in the story.

So overall I agree that they definitely play a roll before the end, but as for sealing the bore. . . the two halves of the source will have to unite for that to be accomplished.