he smell of a Madman
by Grane: 2004-03-05 | 5.5 out of 10 (8 votes)
In COT we learn that Masema wants others to believe that Masema died and was reborn as The Prophet of the Lord Dragon Reborn. Now lets look at some other facts.
Masema has had definate dealings with Suroth, a known darkfriend. Perrin cannot put a scent to him, all he smells is madness. He will not let anyone use the OP around him. In an earlier meeting Sammael and/or Graendal points out that events in the south have Demandred's name all over it- Two things are happening in the south right now though, Seanchan and the Prophets uprisings i.e. dragonsworn.
Now, what if say at some time Demandred kills Masema after he begins as the Prophet takes over the mantle then tells everyone not to call him Masema, but the Prophet because he isn't Masema. The reason for his dealings with Suroth is because she is taking orders from him, the Chosen Demandred. Perrin cant put a scent to him because he is using some kind of mask with the OP, maybe he knows about Perrn's abilities. And he certainly doesn't want anyone else who can channel around him, let alone having them channeling for him(when Perrin and Co. want to travel with him to Rand).
What if the shadow were to raise an army in the Dragon's name but not use it to his good maybe even against him? That is what is happening with the Dragonsworn, have we seen them help anything in anyway? No.
You may be wondering how this would work with the Shienaran's around say at the time of Samara? Well either Demandred hadn't taken over yet, they just couldn't tell. They weren't around him that much, even the forsaken have to watch where they step, he couldnt just go off killing 20 of his supposed companions. As for the two that stuck with him, they may be his personal, compelled body guards.
I know this isn't completely feesable. In WH during "coffee hour" I belive Aran'gar points out that Demandred is one of Al'thor's watchers, hardly possible as the Prophet, I know, but something strange is going on with "Masema's" character.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-03-20
I happen to agree with most of what you have suggested. Masema is definitely not "himself." But, I think you have gone one more step than is necessary. I think Masema is under Demandred's influence. He is certainly being "controlled" by someone, and as you have suggested, other comments in the books make it likely that some of the Forsaken know who Masema's boss is. I think Masema is one of Demandred's proxies; as you pointed out, I think it is a joke by Demandred to create an army of the Dragon that in the end will betray him.
2
Darren: 2004-03-20
This is a good theory.
At first I didn't agree with it (and still don't with everything... I'm with Tam on how Mas might be being manipulated, but he's not one and the same) as Masema is, as you point out, vehemently opposed to channeling...
Now sure, Demandred could use Compulsion on him, but that tends to produce slackwits, not hyper motivated preachers... so how would Demandred influence him?
Simple. By providing Masema "visions" either in his dreams or in the flesh.. he might even take on Rand's form for this (although I think that unlikely.)
3
charliec: 2004-03-20
I agree with Tamyrlin and Darren- he's Masema for real (I think Perrin notices his scent while they're all still together as well).
But he could easily be under forsaken control, and as you say Demandred's the obvious choice. I like Darren's suggestion, but also think compulsion's feasible... if subtly done then it wouldn't necessarily mess him up more than necessary.
I'm sure he's not a darkfriend though... just nuts.
4
Blademaster: 2004-03-20
I think that Demandred is using Masema as is said above. I like the idea the Demandred is creating an army of "dragonsworn" to use against the dragon. Anybody else see the obvious relation to Taim creating the black tower, and then (almost certainly) turning on Rand?
5
Grady: 2004-03-21
I've thought that Masema and Taim were both working for Demandred for awhile now. Dem seems the type that would think it hilarious to turn Rand's own creations and followers(supposed followers anyway) against him. But that's as far as it goes. I don't think Demandred has posed as Masema because RJ has said that we haven't seen Demandred posing as anyone yet, or who he's posing as.
6
Weird Harold: 2004-04-06
Two points:
1: RJ has said tht we have NOT seen Demandred's alter Ego -- Masema is therefore NOT Demandred in disguise becue the Creator said so.
2: Masema and his follower's are more Mesaana's style than Demandred's -- if Masema is a Forsaken Proxy, he's Mesaana's and not Demandred's. Compare the activities of "Mesaana's Children" in the AOL as described inthe BWB with Masema and his follower's -- the parallel's are very close. Demandred's record as detailed in the BWB is strictly "military" withno evidence of "unconventional warfare" being his "style."
7
Underhill: 2004-04-13
Responding to the reply that Demandred may be giving Masema visions, I think that Masema wouldn't be insane if he actually was seeing real visions. Real insanity would be closer to him not having visions and believing them.
8
hassman: 2004-04-18
I will put my vote in the manipulated camp, but my money is on Graendal. She is the psychologist used to dealing with madmen. I think Masema was close to the edge, and she gave him a directed push. She is in the general area, and has dealings with dragonsworn. Her motivations are harder to read in that she is just creating chaos, not establishing a power structure to work with. She does seem to subtly compel the major powers of the region, so maybe she figures she can pick up the pieces at leisure.
9
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-18
I believe what RJ said, as that Demandred was not masqurading(spelling) as Taim. This doesn't neccesarily mean that Taim isn't demandred, just that he's not openly trying to influence people into beleiving it. Keep in mind that most people have not seen Taim face to face, and not even rand (LTT maybe, but not rand) knows what demandred or taim looks like. He has no reason to hide behind a mask or go around trying to prove he is taim. He simply has to state "I am mazrim taim" and it's done.
10
charliec: 2004-04-19
What? Rand has met + talked with Taim several times.
11
Callandor: 2004-04-19
** I believe what RJ said, as that Demandred was not masqurading(spelling) as Taim. This doesn't neccesarily mean that Taim isn't demandred, just that he's not openly trying to influence people into beleiving it.**
Taim is not Demandred.
**Q: "It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that."
A: "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred."**
**Q: "Taim is clearly not Demandred, right?"
A: "I've said that before, and it's not Taim, it's Ta-eeem."**
Also,
**Q: "Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?"
A: "No."**
Taim is not Demandred.
12
Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-20
Charliec, I meant previous to Taim being caught. Good point Callandor, but flat out answers are more decieving then detailed ones.
13
Callandor: 2004-04-21
**Good point Callandor, but flat out answers are more decieving then detailed ones.**
Really... hmm... RJ said, flat out, in his own repsonce, that "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred." I don't know about you, but that is a fact with no wiggle room.
14
Anubis: 2004-04-21
"flat out answers are more decieving then detailed ones"
ummmmm not really. detailed answers allow much more room to lie, and to hide the actual truth.
eg,
Q: i heard you have a tatoo on your arm... do you have a tattoo?
A: no, i dont have a tatoo on my arm.
(the tattoo is on... oh hell lets say chest)
no lie has been said, but a person might walking away thinking there was no tattoo. a flat answer would leave no doubt.
15
Aiel Finn: 2005-04-21
Rememeber that Masema started acting strangely after Falme. Demandred may have tried to compulse him at this time because he just got out of the bore. Wasn't one of the effects of fighting compulsion madness?
16
Traveller: 2005-12-14
I agree with Aiel Finn. Perrin didn't smell madness when he was first around Masema, and as far as we know, it is not like Jordan to make someone mad with no reason for it. I think Masema is under compulsion, or perhaps something a little different, because i believe it would be hard to use compulsion on an utterly mad person because their mind would twist things, so perhaps we will be introduced to some new compulsion-like thing- perhaps with some element of Demandred speaking directly into Masema's mind
